Low end theory....

[searl6542]

First off, hello all. I have been lurking on this site for some time trying to educate myself on boats/boating. I am new to boating. The more I research the more confused I get. I have been researching bowriders in the 20 - 22 ft range and i am looking at every manufacturer? So here's my question(s) what makes a boat "low end"? If I walk into a warehouse and there were several different bowriders but all badges removed and each with SS everything and options, matching engines. What am I looking for beyond that? It's hard to determine at times because everyone seems to love the brand they own.

 

[roscoe]

Re: Low end theory....

Welcome to iboats.


This list could get long, I'll start it out with :

Quality of seats,
Quality of hardware/fittings,
Amount of wood in the boat (transom, stringers, floor), and was it sealed properly.
Fit and finish.
Quality of carpet.
Fiberglass type and thickness. Sprayed or hand laid.
Gelcoat.



A lot of these are evident when you look at some that are 10-15 years old, and see how they held up to the elements.



Next.

 

[LippCJ7]

Re: Low end theory....

First off high end and low end really only refer to new boats, once they are used then its a whole new ball game as Care and Maintenance take over so if we were to talk about pure top end boats there are several variables that I would consider quality,

Construction
the over all construction of the Hull
fit and finish
the refinements in the construction that make it a quality boat, material used and interior, or options
Quality of Equipment
this is a no brainer now days since every boat only has a few choices of motors and drives but back in the day it wasn't so cut and dry, higher end boats typically give you more options of motors and drives though

The gap has been closed recently due to the economy and lower tier boat manufacturers stepping up but overall the boat manufacturers are in the same position they were in 15 years ago with a few exceptions.

Also I have found that a top end boat is typically heavier then a lower tier boat of the same size, I think this is because of Hull Construction but there can be a few other things that can cause this as well

 

[kfa4303]

Re: Low end theory....

Love the Tribe Called Quest reference!

 

[roscoe]

Re: Low end theory....

This is an example of a well built hull. A bit over the top and extreme,but well built.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqkfKfc2Y4Q&feature=relmfu

 

[superbenk]

Re: Low end theory....

This is an example of a well built hull. A bit over the top and extreme,but well built.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqkfKfc2Y4Q&feature=relmfu

Color me impressed!

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Low end theory....

First off, hello all. I have been lurking on this site for some time trying to educate myself on boats/boating. I am new to boating. The more I research the more confused I get. I have been researching bowriders in the 20 - 22 ft range and i am looking at every manufacturer? So here's my question(s) what makes a boat "low end"? If I walk into a warehouse and there were several different bowriders but all badges removed and each with SS everything and options, matching engines. What am I looking for beyond that? It's hard to determine at times because everyone seems to love the brand they own.

Low-end versus high-end differences . . .

Materials
Manufacturing methods (chopper guns, versus hand layup, versus vacuum injection, etc)
Component selection
Workmanship
Fit & Finish

Go to NADA.com and look under boats . . . there will be most of the popular brands on the manufacturer's front page . . .

If you check the MSRP for the similar size boats across all brands and similar styles you will get a pretty good idea of the quality spectrum accross many brands. Not a perfect analysis, but a pretty good measure.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Low end theory....

although you said "matching engines" one sign of "low end" is an underpowered boat-since they are mainly sold as packages, some places that will remain nameless, like basspro, sell underpowered rigs to bring the price down. Happens with OB so I assume also with I/O.

Also, brands change through the years; an old Mako hull is a great hull but the new ones are regarded as low end. i think Wellcraft may have slipped some.

Good point about the better boats weighing more. For some boaters, it may be wise to buy a "lower end" boat that's lighter and can take a smaller engine, thus being cheaper and more efficient, as long as you don't demand hard use.

I'm beginning to think that there aren't many low-end boats but there are high end boats, boats you could buy sight unseen. Whaler, contender, come to mind. Probably some bow-rider brands comparible.

Of course, with older used boats, except the highest end, condition becomes the great equalizer for brands.

 

[southkogs]

Re: Low end theory....

To plug in for just a second ... Note the end of Home Cookin's post ^^^^^^

When it comes to buying something used look at condition vs. brand mark. A well kept "low end" boat is going to be better than a neglected "high quality" used boat.

 

[searl6542]

Re: Low end theory....

Thanks all for the information. The picture is a bit clearer now. My impression reading many post before this felt as if low end boats would last x amount of voyages before they began to disintegrate. So, would it be fair to say that if I were to get the right package for a 20 - 22 ft bow rider and took care of it (regardless of the make) I should be OK with it?

I would be boating on Lake Champlain in VT. It would be my family of 4 (myself, wife, 2 kids 12 and 6) and of course they would bring friends. We would be mostly cruising and tubing. I need to tow it with a tow limit of 5000 lbs. The ramp is 5 miles away. So I am looking into something that will seat at least 8 people max, handle chop well, but also something that will last. I don't want to buy something and then turn around and kick myself later thinking I should have gone bigger (boat and engine wise).

@roscoe - impressive video!

 

[LippCJ7]

Re: Low end theory....

Ok this is going to be your first boat correct? One of the things I tell people is that you also want to figure in is your ROI, you want to get a decent boat that you can bang up a little bit, think of this as your first car, if your like most people their first car was a good car but nothing you couldn't have an oops with from time to time, so yes your looking for that diamond in the rough but also a medium where you can get a return on in a couple years, this is called twofootitis, after a couple years or maybe even a year depending on how much you use your boat you will want to upgrade to something more in line with your needs, maybe a cuddy or maybe a bigger boat who knows so your ROI becomes important so that you can sell the old and make a good investment on the new.

As far as Bowriders are concerned the top make has been Cobalt, top end would be Chapparral, Crownline and a few others I used JD Power as a reference but again when considering used boats care and maintenance is the number one concern make is secondary.

 

[Philster]

Re: Low end theory....

Some great hull builders have rigging that a 9-year old with some bread ties could do better.

So builders that do great rigging have hulls that are thin, or have delamination issues or blister issues.

Some builders get by on their name/myth/legend.

Some builders do everything but gel work right.

Some builders do everything right, but their boats have a carp ride and they underpower them to get the price right.

In some cases, you might want to have someone show you examples of good gel work, proper rigging, solid hulls, quality SS hardware, etc. Very hard to demonstrate without someone giving examples.

 

[searl6542]

Re: Low end theory....

Some great hull builders have rigging that a 9-year old with some bread ties could do better.

So builders that do great rigging have hulls that are thin, or have delamination issues or blister issues.

Some builders get by on their name/myth/legend.

Some builders do everything but gel work right.

Some builders do everything right, but their boats have a carp ride and they underpower them to get the price right.

In some cases, you might want to have someone show you examples of good gel work, proper rigging, solid hulls, quality SS hardware, etc. Very hard to demonstrate without someone giving examples.

So, in your opinion, who are the ones that fit this comment? "Some builders get by on their name/myth/legend."

 

[Philster]

Re: Low end theory....

Well, that's hard without offending people here.

Personally, getting by on names now: Grady White, Boston Whaler, Wellcraft and Mako.

Lean towards the Four Winns, Chapparals, and, well, I love my boat/builder. This is riddled with opinion, and I don't want to start arguments. Generally, some names always pop up when discussing quality mid-grade boats (Four Winns, Chappy) and high-end boats (Cobalt, Formula, Chris Craft).

Dancing in the low-end but worth some peeks: Stingray.

 

[hog88]

Re: Low end theory....

Thanks all for the information. The picture is a bit clearer now. My impression reading many post before this felt as if low end boats would last x amount of voyages before they began to disintegrate. So, would it be fair to say that if I were to get the right package for a 20 - 22 ft bow rider and took care of it (regardless of the make) I should be OK with it?

I would be boating on Lake Champlain in VT. It would be my family of 4 (myself, wife, 2 kids 12 and 6) and of course they would bring friends. We would be mostly cruising and tubing. I need to tow it with a tow limit of 5000 lbs. The ramp is 5 miles away. So I am looking into something that will seat at least 8 people max, handle chop well, but also something that will last. I don't want to buy something and then turn around and kick myself later thinking I should have gone bigger (boat and engine wise).
@roscoe - impressive video!

No matter what you get you will always do that... 2'itis will always rear it's head after a year or two...

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Low end theory....

Thanks all for the information. The picture is a bit clearer now. My impression reading many post before this felt as if low end boats would last x amount of voyages before they began to disintegrate. So, would it be fair to say that if I were to get the right package for a 20 - 22 ft bow rider and took care of it (regardless of the make) I should be OK with it?

I would be boating on Lake Champlain in VT. It would be my family of 4 (myself, wife, 2 kids 12 and 6) and of course they would bring friends. We would be mostly cruising and tubing. I need to tow it with a tow limit of 5000 lbs. The ramp is 5 miles away. So I am looking into something that will seat at least 8 people max, handle chop well, but also something that will last. I don't want to buy something and then turn around and kick myself later thinking I should have gone bigger (boat and engine wise).

@roscoe - impressive video!

You can be "OK" with about any brand. None of them is going to disintegrate, unless there are maintenance failures or defects. Sometimes the "worst" boats last forever and the "best" boats have problems. There can be lemons. Just like cars in this respect. brand is not the issue for serious problems.

If you buy a decent boat new or relatively new and take care of it, it should last you until you are tired of it. But regardless of condition you may find its design (including size) is unsatifactory for your location and use. The wrong fit in that regard can damage or destroy the boat, not the brand. So while I would never recommend the typical bow rider for open water use, it's not because the boat itself will "disintegrate" just because of its brand. That's just a whole 'nother discussion.

I personally do not think buying new is worth it. There isn't much you can do in the first year that makes that boat 25% "worse" than it was new. if you are new to boating and need to pay for reliability, and can afford new and want top cosmetic condition, get one that's a year or two old from a reliable seller.

We're talking comparing manufacturers and relatively new boats. The "old used" market and strategy is a whole 'nuther discussion, too.

 

[searl6542]

Re: Low end theory....

I HOPE that I can avoid the 2'itis!!

 

[searl6542]

Re: Low end theory....

@Home Cookin'

I have been looking at boats from 2005 and newer. Trying not to go new unless it's a great deal and I just can't find what I want near by. (I know...patience is key.) I hope that I can find some boats in my driving range (not too familiar with shipping boats..makes me nervous) that are in good shape for my use. I have a budget of $30k at most. I have been out on plenty of friends boats and behind the wheel at times, but I would consider myself a newbie though.

 

[coreybv]

Re: Low end theory....

Dancing in the low-end but worth some peeks: Stingray.

Definitely worth a peek.

My first boat was an '83 18' Stingray bowrider. Had a Mercruiser 140 4 cylinder. I have no delusions that it was a "high end" boat, but hey, I was fresh out of college when I bought it and could only afford so much.

I bought it in '98 in rough shape, and got 10 good years out of it. Technically I still own it, just have no idea where it is (VERY long story. Trying to track it down, though.). If I track it down I know it needs a u-joint and gimbal bearing, but I'd still be happy to own it for 10 more years after a little upholstery work. It was definitely a strong, solid boat. Rode smoother in choppy water than my buddy's 21' Sea Ray cuddy.

It had it's issues, but all things considered I definitely wouldn't shy away from buying another Stingray if a decent one for a decent price presented itself.

 

[hog88]

Re: Low end theory....

I HOPE that I can avoid the 2'itis!!

Good luck but it is very easy to catch...