Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

The cabosil mix not containing chopped fibers is not the issue. As you say, the fibers act like rebar which adds strength, does not add or improve adhesion properties. From looking at the pic's it is not a strength issue, it is a bonding issue.

I agree that its a bonding issue.

Adding chopped fibers might make it more difficult to apply your fillets.

Also .. you dont really need such a large radius for mat or 1708.

Clean up as much as you can ( reprep ) and go for it again.

YD.

 

[Friscoboater]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

The cabosil mix not containing chopped fibers is not the issue. As you say, the fibers act like rebar which adds strength, does not add or improve adhesion properties. From looking at the pic's it is not a strength issue, it is a bonding issue. I think I have to agree with the general conscensus, it is the PL off gassing causing the issue. I learned something similar on my boat build. When laying glass early afternoon, I would get air bubbles under the glass. This was due to the wood heating up along with the epoxy and gassing off. When I layed glass early in the morning or in the evening, little to no gassing issue. Of course I was outside under a tent so the sun had a bit more direct inpact on the heating for me.

Yep you are 100 percent right. I went back and looked at the pictures and it looks like PL glue with PB over the top and it just did not stick.

You still should use fibers in the mix.

 

[Badfish95]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

Just got back from 3 hours of grinding the bad fillets. I used a 36 grit flap disc and feathered all the edges until it reached a bonding point. In most areas that was all the way to the PL glue. It sucks to waste all that material but at least the new fillets will contain fiber and will add to overall strength.

Thanks for everyone's help. Hopefully my mistake will keep a few others from making the same. If you use PL glue to bed your stringers, be sure to wait at LEAST 72 hours before glasswork.

 

[rickryder]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

That sucks when things don't go as planned... but you'll fix it and be on your way! I used PB to bed my stringers.....forget that PL stuff...it's for subfloors in houses not boats IMO

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

If you want to use "Caulk" to bed your stringers or bulkies .. tape off the main lam surfaces.

I would personally Never use Caulk to bed a stringer or structure the had fiberglass laminations involved ..

Why this PL beading thing came up I have no idea .. but its a bad one.

Fillet and glass it with your resin all at one time. . .. If you dont have the time to do it at once . then you have to sand and reprep and glass at a Different time.

YD.

 

[Friscoboater]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

If you want to use "Caulk" to bed your stringers or bulkies .. tape off the main lam surfaces.

I would personally Never use Caulk to bed a stringer or structure the had fiberglass laminations involved ..

Why this PL beading thing came up I have no idea .. but its a bad one.

Fillet and glass it with your resin all at one time. . .. If you dont have the time to do it at once . then you have to sand and reprep and glass at a Different time.

YD.

I could not agree more YD!!!! PL is a bad thing for fillets. I used it just under my stringers and then went back with PB for the fillets.

 

[Outback Jack]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

I tried using Pl because many during my readings recommended it. I was out of the fiberglass trade for years and was trying to see what new and wonderful products and ideas were out there.. I had a few problems with it. I went right back to pb. I know some people have had luck with it but if it is giving some people grief again it has compatibility issues plain and simple. Stick to the old pb.

Cheers

 

[Auger01]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

Looks like you tried to apply a PB fillet to stringers that were coated and cured. You have to sand cured resin to get a good secondary bond before you add the PB. If you hit it with a 36 grit disk then you should be good to go....

PL is for houses, not boats.

 

[Decker83]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

From looking at the pics I agree it is a gassing issue with the PL.. I also see some really big fillets..
The fillets or mainly used to give a smooth transition between the to mating surfaces.. You really don't need more than 1/4" to 1/2"
radius to have a ideal layup..
Make sure you have cleaned up all the problem areas, go over it all with your acetone right before you start to lay your new fillets..
I mix up about a quart of resin and twice as much cabisol and 1/4 cup of chop strand mat.. Get a large freezer zip lock bag ( not a samwich bag ) put some of the PB in the bag and push it down into the corner of the bag and then cut a small corner off the bag..
You twist the bag as you go and keep a even presure as you apply the PB. It will make a very nice bead for you..Then take a spoon or a popcycle stick and smooth it all out.. It helps to keep the spoon or stick clean.. I do this by taken a small amount of acetone in a can
and put the stick or spoon in it before each use.. Hope this helps..

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

Yea . .. and all that stuff too ..

What you want is a prepped surface both on you glass and your wood.

If you dont have a good prepped surface ( no matter what surface ) it Will Fail ..

Go ahead and glass to what you Think is a good prepped surface .. gonna fail man.

Prep for glassing .. thats the Only way your going to get a good/proper bond.

Do what you want to your boat. .. Im just saying ..

YD.

 

[Badfish95]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

Thanks for all the advice. I had 4 stringers in the bow that still needed bedded in. I went with the PB method to bed and CSM to tab them in one step. What a difference!

All surfaces were either ground hull or unfinished wood. I used the freezer bag and one of my kid's old baby spoons to smooth the fillet. Then I applied a 3" strip of CSM to the fillet in all horizontal and vertical joints. I am very satisfied with the bond this time. I will go over all stringers with two more layers of 1708, hopefully in one step.

PB seems like the best way to go, but you had better have all day and/or another person mixing up batches and handing you materials. My PB mixture and resin started kicking off towards the end and I was only doing 4 small bow stringers. Working time may be the only advantage PL has over PB.

 

[GT1000000]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

Glad to hear PB worked better...
A couple of other things besides having and assistant also help...
1- work in the shade...
2- catalyze at the low end, .75% MEK-P...I have always pre-mixed the resin, cabosil and milled fibers thoroughly, before adding the catalyst...personal preference and I have NEVER had a batch fail to work...
3- cool the resin and MEK-P, at least a few degrees cooler than the working environment...
After you are done, and you want to still keep going, and the Sun is out, and it isn't below 60?, if possible, roll the hull into the direct sunlight, or if you were working under a tent, uncover it...all your previous work will "kick-off" within a matter of minutes...
BTW, unless you post up pictures of your work...around here, it didn't happen

 

[Friscoboater]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

Glad to hear PB worked better...
A couple of other things besides having and assistant also help...
1- work in the shade...
2- catalyze at the low end, .75% MEK-P...I have always pre-mixed the resin, cabosil and milled fibers thoroughly, before adding the catalyst...personal preference and I have NEVER had a batch fail to work...
3- cool the resin and MEK-P, at least a few degrees cooler than the working environment...
After you are done, and you want to still keep going, and the Sun is out, and it isn't below 60?, if possible, roll the hull into the direct sunlight, or if you were working under a tent, uncover it...all your previous work will "kick-off" within a matter of minutes...
BTW, unless you post up pictures of your work...around here, it didn't happen

Gt, I thought we always catalyzed before adding the fibers and cabosil. Ooops had said a few times that the MEKP does not mix well when you do it after. It was just too think to get a good mix. Did I miss something? If it works well I would rather do it your way as you do not have to hurry.

 

[GT1000000]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

Like I said, I have always done it this way and had ZERO problems...all of the PB I have in my boat, and several others I have worked on in the past, has been done this way and none of it seems compromised, I have also used PB on other fiberglass repairs on 'Vettes and 'glass auto parts...again, NEVER any adverse effects...

I do not have any scientific proof of which way is necessarily better, but I have years of practical proof that tells me it has not been a problem in doing it this way...the only thing I would recommend is that the PB not be too thick, because then it gets really hard to stir...BTW, I have NEVER used a power mixer, always by hand...and the other recommendation is to stir briskly and thoroughly for about a minute or so...

I also want to add that in all my years of working with fiberglass and body filler, the biggest difference I have encountered between the two is the way the two parts mix together...
With body filler, the catalyst is usually colored and of a creamy consistency, if you don't mix it thoroughly to a completely uniform color, it will have "soft spots" that will never cure...on the other hand, I have found that since the catalyst for resin is in a liquid form, it seems to disperse more readily...and seems to distribute itself well enough to catalyze the entire mix...

One of the huge advantages to this is I can pre-mix a huge batch of PB without MEK-P, and just catalyze what I need as I need it...

The method normally practiced of catalyzing the resin, then adding the thickening/strengthening ingredients is probably just as fast and maybe better, if you already have everything pre-measured beforehand and just add it in as soon as you catalyze and stir the resin...I just like doing it this way because I can pre-mix the PB to the exact "thickness" I want with out having to waste time getting the desired consistency by "doing it on the fly"...

I don't want to imply that it is the best way, as there may be some molecular compromise to the final strength of the mix, and I honestly have never looked into it, but it has always worked for me and it definitely gives you much more working time with a lot less stress...

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

Glad to hear PB worked better...
A couple of other things besides having and assistant also help...
1- work in the shade...
2- catalyze at the low end, .75% MEK-P...I have always pre-mixed the resin, cabosil and milled fibers thoroughly, before adding the catalyst...

This is normal and works good with poly and/or Ve Resin mixes.

Gt, I thought we always catalyzed before adding the fibers and cabosil. Ooops had said a few times that the MEKP does not mix well when you do it after. It was just too think to get a good mix. Did I miss something? If it works well I would rather do it your way as you do not have to hurry.

Epoxy is done this way exclusive. Poly or VE resins you can mix your mud and cat it when needed.

Like I said, I have always done it this way and had ZERO problems...all of the PB I have in my boat, and several others I have worked on in the past, has been done this way and none of it seems compromised, I have also used PB on other fiberglass repairs on 'Vettes and 'glass auto parts...again, NEVER any adverse effects...

I never had any problems with premixing the fills ( cabosil and resin ) and kicking it off when needed.

I also want to add that in all my years of working with fiberglass and body filler, the biggest difference I have encountered between the two is the way the two parts mix together...
With body filler, the catalyst is usually colored and of a creamy consistency, if you don't mix it thoroughly to a completely uniform color, it will have "soft spots" that will never cure...on the other hand, I have found that since the catalyst for resin is in a liquid form, it seems to disperse more readily...and seems to distribute itself well enough to catalyze the entire mix...

One of the huge advantages to this is I can pre-mix a huge batch of PB without MEK-P, and just catalyze what I need as I need it...

Yup and Yes sir .. thats right spot on !!

The method normally practiced of catalyzing the resin, then adding the thickening/strengthening ingredients is probably just as fast and maybe better, if you already have everything pre-measured beforehand and just add it in as soon as you catalyze and stir the resin...I just like doing it this way because I can pre-mix the PB to the exact "thickness" I want with out having to waste time getting the desired consistency by "doing it on the fly"...

I don't want to imply that it is the best way, as there may be some molecular compromise to the final strength of the mix, and I honestly have never looked into it, but it has always worked for me and it definitely gives you much more working time with a lot less stress...

With Poly or VE it is the best way I know of. If its Epoxy .. then you have to mix the resin first and then add the fillers.

Some dont like the way mixes are done .. fine .. but we ( as professionals ) are suggesting that these mixes are not only done without fail but done day to day.

These mixes are correct with poly.

Take it or leave it ..your choice..

YD.

 

[Badfish95]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

Glad to hear PB worked better...
A couple of other things besides having and assistant also help...
1- work in the shade...
2- catalyze at the low end, .75% MEK-P...I have always pre-mixed the resin, cabosil and milled fibers thoroughly, before adding the catalyst...personal preference and I have NEVER had a batch fail to work...
3- cool the resin and MEK-P, at least a few degrees cooler than the working environment...
After you are done, and you want to still keep going, and the Sun is out, and it isn't below 60?, if possible, roll the hull into the direct sunlight, or if you were working under a tent, uncover it...all your previous work will "kick-off" within a matter of minutes...
BTW, unless you post up pictures of your work...around here, it didn't happen

Here's the properly done Bed/Fillet. So much cleaner and with the fibers inside, much stronger.

Here's a photo of her, BTW. It's 32 degrees outside today so the shed and a gas forced air furnace is pretty nice. I will update my resto thread as I got the interior framework(bench seat, hatch, and supports urethaned this weekend as well).

http://forums.iboats.com/boat-resto...crownline-202-br-deck-restoration-591087.html

 

[mwe-maxxowner]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

Glad to hear PB worked better...
A couple of other things besides having and assistant also help...
1- work in the shade...
2- catalyze at the low end, .75% MEK-P...I have always pre-mixed the resin, cabosil and milled fibers thoroughly, before adding the catalyst...personal preference and I have NEVER had a batch fail to work...
3- cool the resin and MEK-P, at least a few degrees cooler than the working environment...
After you are done, and you want to still keep going, and the Sun is out, and it isn't below 60?, if possible, roll the hull into the direct sunlight, or if you were working under a tent, uncover it...all your previous work will "kick-off" within a matter of minutes...
BTW, unless you post up pictures of your work...around here, it didn't happen

I thought I read somewhere that 1% mekp was a minimum?

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

I thought I read somewhere that 1% mekp was a minimum?

For what application ? .. what resin ? .. what fill size ..

Its Not about %.. its all about application and what your are trying to do in any time frame and more applications and yada ya de ya..

You cant mix Every Poxy based product out there for Every situation ..

Its kinda a like being a chemist .. sometimes. .. 1 is preferable .. but sometimes 2 is better .. does not make sence because your not a chemist .. but it works better. Its just the way it is sometimes.

There is NO % for Everything Poly ! ... Never ..

YD.

 

[mwe-maxxowner]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

I just mean for laminating or making pb. I thought there was a minimum amount of catalyst below which the resin would never harden, regardless of temperature. Is there no minimum ratio? I need to know how to mix mine for a slow kick when I first get started until I get a little experience. I was just going by the mekp amounts given on the paper that came with the resin.

 

[Decker83]

Re: Major Fillet Problems.... Please Help!

Very nice work on the fillets..
Keep up the good work..
Alot of good info going on in here..