Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

[kyudizky]

I have read over and over on here "get the OEM service manual! Don't mess with third party manuals, spend the extra money!!!"

I have no problem footing some extra cash for a better product but getting taken to the cleaners, i'm not so fond of! The only place (besides getting lucky on ebay or somthing) to get a OEM manual, as most of you know is outboardbooks.com (Ken Cooks website) or marineengine.com. How in the world can they get away with charging an arm and 2 legs for printed material. I had forked up 90 bucks for a manual, which i was not happy with, only to find out the same day thru reseach that infact my motor was a '84 model, not a '91 model like i was told. So i looked up the '84 90hp manual-----$120----. You have got to be kidding me! That is outrageous. I guess they thinks they have everyone by the ba*** since they has sole right to copy. And why on earth do the manuals vary so much in price from one year to the next when the product cost change very, very little, if any with varying numbers of pages.

I have searched to no end for an alternative to getting oem manual with no luck, and i refuse to pay someone 120 bucks for paper, material that he didn't even write, but probably paid pennies on the dollar in bankrupcy court from OMC for copyrights. Maybe I have this all wrong, but the $120 is robbery and borderline unethical in my book.

So please try not to get frustrated at my future questions on this forum b/c I don't have an "OEM Manual", but rather a clymer or seloc. I am not trying to "waste anyones time" as someone signature on here suggests.

 

[dregsfan]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

I wouldn't pay that either. Try buying a used one on Ebay or Amazon.com.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

I suggest that you hire a technical illustrator (or two), a technical writer (or two), a layout person and an editor and then using your engine as a test, set out to create a detailed, fullly illustrated service manual for it. When you are done with the copy, head to your local printshop and get a quote to print and bind it. You will find that $120 is a bargain. And that manual would cover ONLY your engine. Now repeat the process for a series of engines under the same cover. People are so accustomed to going to the web, printing off a bunch of material with no thought whatsoever about the time, effort, and costs associated with its production. And of course they want it "free of charge" and the the word "copyright" means nothing to them.

 

[kyudizky]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

Silvertip, your exactly right, and I addressed that in my thread. All that labor/cost was done by OMC many, many rears ago, and I can guarantee you the cost associated with that was built into the price of the motor/boat when it was originally priced as a new product from the manufacturer, the one who incurred these cost. Neither Ken Cook or marineengine.com had anything to do with what you are talking about. Their product is not their original material. I understand copyright and respect them, but in no way does the copright have anything to do with the fact that an '84 manual is 75% of $50 highr than the same '85 manual. I never said that I wanted to print anything on the internet for free, nor did I imply that.

The cost for the creation of these manuals was paid when the boat was bought new. The copyright/print cost are what we pay for now. The third party manual dealers might have done the leg work that you speak of, and cost a fraction of that of these copyright queens.

 

[ezeke]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

There is no individual factory service manual for the 1984 90HP recreational outboard. The manual (#394607) that you see listed covers all models from 2 HP through V6 and is roughly 700 pages.

The large reproductions are a good buy if you use them a lot. The paper quality on used originals that you find on Ebay is not very good and will not hold up very long after 25 years.

 

[curiousB]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

..."The cost for the creation of these manuals was paid when the boat was bought new. "...



Wrong. The creation of this title was a publication no different than a literary work or a song or a software program. It is an intellectual asset. Its value is determined by the publishing revenues over the assets useful life. The creation cost of printing a copy is irrelevant and not the basis for any meaningful pricing discussion. Whoever owns the copy write has the right to charge whatever they like. I presume the volume of circa 1974 manuals is not too high hence the higher price.

Price is set by the marketplace not by cost. The copy write owner has determined he is better served selling fewer manuals at a higher price than a few more at a lower price. That is his prerogative. ?. its also why widespread copy write abuse occurs??..

 

[adamjr]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

There is no individual factory service manual for the 1984 90HP recreational outboard. The manual (#394607) that you see listed covers all models from 2 HP through V6 and is roughly 700 pages.

The large reproductions are a good buy if you use them a lot. The paper quality on used originals that you find on Ebay is not very good and will not hold up very long after 25 years.

I tend to disagree with the claim that the paper quality not being good unless there is a drastic difference between the paper used for my 1972 manual and the 1984 manual.

I also agree with the original posters point that reprinting someone elses material as Ken Cook does can be done at a profit for far less then what he vharges. I speak from a particularly expert opinion on the topic considering I work in the duplication equipment industry. One of our machines is capable of producing glue-bound or stitch-bound books up to 1000 sheets (2000 pages) with covers up to 120 pound bond at a cost of about 1 cent per page.

While I agree, in part, with curiousB as to the value of copyrighted material the cost that Ken Cook charges for manuals is highway robbery. I would continue looking on eBay and find an original manual for 25% of what Ken Cook charges.

 

[kyudizky]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

CuriousB, i would bet you have a problem with oil companies charging "whatever they like" for the gas you put in your car. Unless you have never complained about high fuel prices. You can't exactly charge a price as to your perogative, at least the government doesnt think so.

None the less, I agree with copyrights and what they stand for, but I also believe in fair pricing, supported by adamjr. When they sell me a manual, he's not selling the intellectual asset, rather a material asset, no different than anything else you buy, which also has design copyrights, that you don't buy. And charging 75% percent more for one manual year to the next when both are very, very similar in content and # of pages, amplifies the issue. I highly doubt that the marketplace justifies this 75% increase from one year to the next. I could be wrong-----

 

[Rick.]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

I've never paid anywhere near that much for a manual but if I had to I would in a heart beat. They save many hours of frustration and "try again" work. If you are patient you will get a good deal at Ebay. For my 9.5-73 it took over a year, but I got one for 10 bucks plus shipping. I could have paid 40 and had it in a week but really didn't need it that bad. If the manual covers that many different engines I would say it is not a bad deal at all. Rick.

 

[Finnish genius]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

Try your library if they don't have they usually can get you a manual from another library. Most libraries are sharing books NOT all. They most likely will even show you how to copy the pages you need.

 

[curiousB]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

CuriousB, i would bet you have a problem with oil companies charging "whatever they like" for the gas you put in your car. Unless you have never complained about high fuel prices. You can't exactly charge a price as to your perogative, at least the government doesnt think so.
-----

Well it isn't what they arbitrarily decide price. Its the price arrived at by the free market system. Supply and demand. That is how wholesale oil is priced, the marketplace. Do you think it costs $80 a barrel to pump it out of the ground? Try about $3.

If oil companies raised prices demand would drop. If they could make arbitrailry large profit forever new entrants would enter the space and more competition would drive down prices. Anyway we digress.

If Ken Cook has the copy write he can charge what he likes. Shame on him if he is losing sales and getting a lot of underground photocopying due to his excess price. That is a consequence of his predatory pricing. If Ken Cook is just copying without a licence then why is anyone buying from him?

 

[jonesg]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

If $120 is too much take it to a mechanic.
Look at the bill they give you.
You could buy the manual several times over just for a water pump and carb job.

Theres no such thing as business ethics,
business has an ethic all its own, if its legal its legal.

 

[wilde1j]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

The comments you see here about shop manuals are based upon experience. I have used Clymer, Seloc and others over the years, and in my opinion they are useful as coasters for your beer, and not much more. I have also owned many OEM manuals, and they are almost universally far superior if you're considering a serious repair.

It's just another tool in my view, and there are good tools and crummy ones. I almost always buy new motors and buy the shop manual along with the motor. I currently own a pair of 175 E-tecs, and if I recall the BRP book was ~ $60, not very much for a 3" book covering only the small block V6's. I also bought the diagnostic sw and a used laptop, since the newer DI motor cannot be worked on without those tools. I get questions all the time from people who own E-Tecs or Ficht motors, but don't have the sw or the manual. Truth is they don't have a prayer w/o that stuff.

My point is, if you're going to work on OB, you need the right stuff, or just take to someone who has it.

BTW, I wouldn't knock Ken Cook. I just bought a shop manual for a 1938 Evinrude Elto Mate for under $20. There's no one in the world, other than Ken Cook, who provides manuals and PL's for Evinrude/Johnson/Elto motors going back to the beginning of outboard time.

 

[mike64]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

...Try buying a used one on Ebay or Amazon.com.

Seconding this. I picked up an OEM service manual for my '72 Evinrude 65HP for around $24 on ebay.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

What is being ignored here is why service manuals were produced in the first place. They weren't prepared specifically for the general public. They were produced for service departments in dealerships that handled their product. I was in the manufacturing business back when that 1974 manual was published and in fact had been in the publishing business for the 10 years prior to that as well. If you look at the cover of virtually any technical document from a manufacturer (not necessarily a regular literary work) you will find that document generally carries a manufacturers part number. In 1974 it cost a manufacturer about $10,000 to merely enter a part number in their engineering documentation data base whether that part number was for an engine block, a cylinder head, a label or in this case a service manual. Why so much? Again it is people and overhead. Drawings, bills of material, design specifications, and related documents needed to be prepared. These didn't just fall out of the sky. People prepared these documents and those documents as well needed part numbers. Engineering Change Orders were required to implement any changes to those documents which was then the approval to make changes to whatever product was affected, and to track these changes over time. You might be surprised to find out that the customer did not pay for production of that manual. In those days those costs were typically charged internally to a catch all category called "Cost of doing business". Items in that category became deductions on Corporate Taxes along with cost of sales, and other normal expenses. Those manuals may or may not have been sold to dealerships but they were treated exactly like the special tools that manufacturers produced for the dealers. Again, because of the low numbers, those tools were expensive. Now then. Lets say you have the one and only Widget left in the world. I want to buy it. New they sold for $25. I would bet you would wouldn't sell it to me for $25 today. You might also consider that manuals for 1974 motors are not in big demand. Why on earth should I tie up my corporate funds for a manual that I might only sell 10 of in a year. I will do that, but your are going to pay for the knowledge that's in that book. If Ken Cook sold 100 of those books a year at $120 each and had to go outside to print them, those costs would easily be over $12,000 making the effort worthless. If they could print 5000 copies, then yes, they could and would likely reduce the price. Supply and Demand is the issue here. If you think you are being ripped off with a manual, buy a replacement ECU for one of the new outboards. Is something electronic and as small as this really worth 25% of the cost of the entire engine? Supply and demand rules -- especially in the marine world where manufacturing numbers are small.

 

[kyudizky]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

jonessg, I certainly don't disagree that $120 is less than taking even one problem to a mechanic. Your absolutely right. However, using that logic, a good manual could save you upwards of $1000 easily over just a couple of years (depending on the age of motor, even more or less) due to the fouling nature of an outboard, and how it is intended to be used. I don't think that you would disagree. So with that train of thought and justification, all manuals are incrediably under priced. I Don't think anyone here would pay even $500 for a manual, unless outboard motor repair is your trade and you do it to make a living, then maybe.

Business ethics does exist:
You use oil to lubricate your motor, without it your motor would be worthless. A new motor might cost $8K or so if you don't use it. You wouldn't think you were getting a bargain buying motor oil at 7K would you. You wouldn't pay 1k, but that would be a 7k savings. You have to have it, so you say they can charge that for it.
Mooring/Docking ropes vs. cost of new boat.......

same princinple, but would be highly unethical

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

i have not read all the above.

But Ken Cook, bought all the publishing rights from OMC, thru 1996, and paid a pretty penny for them. this was when OMC was in trouble. you can thank, Ken Cook for buying the rights, as the manuals could have been lost in the bankruptcy of OMC.


also marineengine.com., iboats.com, and several others sell OMC OEM manuals, but, they all come from Ken Cook's outboardbooks.com. they one on ebay are either used, or a buy out of dealers old stock.

1997 OEM manuals rights are the property of BRP.

 

[ezeke]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

As I said before, in this case you are comparing apples and oranges, because the reprinted $120. 1984 manual # 394607 is for all of the motors from 2HP through V6. The manual is over 700 pages.

 

[kyudizky]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

Silvertip, I don't disagree on supply and demand driving price. But again I don't think that is the basis for pricing when from one year to the next theres a 75% increase. No way the demand is 75% variance b/w two given years, when the motors are generally very, very similar.

I do think it great that Ken Cook does have the ability to make these manuals availible. We would all be up a creek if he didn't. Again, the copyright cost would not vary from year to year, at least that much, therefore justify a 75% increase between two years.

This spike in price (again, between two consecutive years) is what leads me to believe that the price is not based on demand, copywrite cost, license fees, or availibility (b/c he can print as many of each year as he wants, he has the copyright), or whatever... I can't see a justification, if they were all similiarly priced at $120, then i would feel that somehow his pricing is justified, and would feel different about the high price, but that is not the case.

I will certainly look at ebay for an '84 Johnson/OMC manual, and if any has one they don't need, let me know!

 

[kyudizky]

Re: Manuals - Getting Raked Over the Coals!

Ezeke, I am not trying to be rude, but please explain. No matter how many motors the manual covers, it might as well have just one, since most only by it for the one engine they have, thus the comparision would be the same. The oil comparision would be an apple to an apple, both are an essiential unless you want to deal with the alternative, and that not being an ethical justification for a price to anything.

Again, not taking a personal jab at you, or anyone for that matter, just expressing my opinion, and i understand that it is just that, an opinion. No ill feelings toward anyone who disagrees with me!