MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

[evolution1985]

G'day all wanting to put fuel injection on my carby 5.7 with alpha drive. Has anyone heard good or bad things about the holley kit? or does anyone know of a better fuel injection kit. this is about $1000 so for me it seems better than a replacement motor. my engine is fine i just cant stand carbys in a boat I use for skiing, Im hoping to get much better throttle response with what ever kit I use.

cheers guys

 

[86 century]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

With a carb set up properly you wont see a differnce in hole shot.

if you are getting a poor hole shot with your current setup you may have other problems.

 

[evolution1985]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

no hole shot is actually very good, It can be a bi**H to start sometimes but thats just one of those things. My main problem is response. Bascially its a bit like digital to analogue, when my mate changed his old hallat (aussie bigblock ski boat) to an injected motor, it was allot more responsive and easier to drive. plus i like the reliability and fuel savings fuel injection will also allow me greater tuning and future performance upgrade at a much more cost effective rate. its all Upsides to fuel injection. I do apprecitate your reply tho, Im not quite sure how to word it if that didn't make sense?

 

[evolution1985]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

hey mate, yeah I do understand. I was hoping to find an injection kit with a plenum and throttle body and all the sensors. I found this one
http://www.affordable-fuel-injectio...vrolet_Marine_Tuned_Port_Injection-26-41.html
I understand its a link to an outside site but I can't find it anywhere else. This in theory would be allot easier to tune and by the time i've built it will have all sensors and run an external herrod computer. if you have any thoughts on this style of set up I would love to hear it. cheers guys

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

if you really dont like your carb, and you dont want to swap your engine, your best bet is a complete EFI setup vs the Holly Pro-jection system (which is more of an open loop controlled dribble of fuel than a precision measured injection). I know that some people have good luck with Arizona Speed Marine. http://www.azspeed-marine.com/mapepa.html

The other thing I suggest is finding a donor motor and swapping over the EFI.

 

[evolution1985]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

Ok, but, it's a closed loop sytem and that requires an O2 sensor in the exhaust manifold. Technicaly you can run without one, but you are buying a lot of electronics that will never be used and is not as efficent. You can almost think of running like that as being the equivilent to "limp home" mode on most cars. Yes it will work, no you really get nothing from it.

Yes you can buy new manifolds set up for that but thery are NOT cheap. I see they offer a heated O2 sensor (marine exhausts don't get hot enough to work without being heated) "kit" to install the sensor in existing risers but I've not tried or even seen one installed so I can't comment. Also note the throttle body faces forward, is your engine bay able to accomodate it and a spark arrestor? (You'll probably go with a KN filter or something along the same design.) Figure its going to add 6" to 8" length to the throtle body, make certain it'll fit in your boat.

Price of this fella is $2,100, plus $275 for the O2 setup and I'd say you'll have $2,500 (minimum) in it pretty easily by the time its running. Ask yourself, are you going to get $2500 worth of performance and economy from it? If the answer is no, ask why you are doing it then.

In my part of the world I can pick up a 383 stroker for that sort of money if I want ponies. http://kansascity.craigslist.org/pts/2814171320.html

I wish I could get a 383 stroker for that. haha We aussies get screwed on everything, although we do it to ourselves so no excuses really. I do completely understand what your saying, I do definitely have the room for what ever we do to the boat as i will be rebuilding the seats around the motor. I had a look around for a donor motor, but all I could find fuel injected were auto motors, and I don't think I can use them because of the way the fuel returns are or something. As this is a boat we will keep for years as it will be exactly what we want when we are done, I want to do everything whilst the boat is pulled apart. Im also retired so for about 5-6 months of the year the boat gets used nearly every day so I do beilive that I will notice the fuel savings and as fuel is getting more expensive I think its best.

The other option of what I was looking at was a complete motor swap and then to sell my motor. One of the reasons I do love you guys in the usa is prices. I got quoted from a mercury dealer here for a 5.7 mpi changeover motor ( computer and all harnesses) not installed for $21000 AUD, i mean thats CRAZY!!! I can bring a boat over from the states with a 5.7mpi cheaper than that. but Im only looking at $6000-$7000 for a motor from the states. (+1250 shipping) so Im really not sure what I want to do just yet. all I know is Im fairly confident that I will run injection its just a matter of how and how much. either way I want it done right and safe.

I know it seems silly but I really do think that I will notice the savings the throttle response will be better.

where should I look at to get the headers? I don't know if I like the idea of a kit to "make" the sensors work

 

[E4ODnut]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

I'd suggest that you spend a bit of time researching on this and other marine forums. The subject comes up from time to time. Here's a recent related thread.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=530218

If you want EFI for your engine, you have two choices. Either an OEM package from Mercruiser or Volvo Penta, or after market programmable. Neither is cheap, and programmable involves a lot of work and dedication to tuning. From what I've gathered from your posts, and the application you have I suspect that you'd be happier sticking with what you've got even if it means hiring a good mechanic to get your engine tuned right up. These are common engines. Conventional components usually work well right out of the box. If you are really into engine tuning then programmable EFI might work for you, but I'm not getting that impression from what you've said so far.

As for the Holley system, I have no personal experience with it, but I've studied their literature. It is throttle body, which at best is only a slight improvement over a carburetor. I haven't heard any good things about it but I admit to a bias against Holley in general. I just think that there are better choices available for almost anything that Holley makes.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

I know there are many Aussies that are into hot-rodding. building a 383 out of your existing engine shouldnt be that difficult. a 3.75" stroke crank, stock rods and custom pistons. Holden's came with the same power plants over the years, so finding hot-rod parts for a 350 shouldnt be too hard. I myself am simply updating my engine with Vortec heads and a cam. while I wont see 100hp increase, I will see an honest 40-50hp increase. you should already have the vortec heads on the '97, so your half-way there.

as for swapping in EFI. as E4ODnut stated, your looking at the MPI system with the MEFI ECU or an aftermarket system. however if your engine isnt starting, I would start with the basics - plugs and carb cleaning, and work from there.

 

[evolution1985]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

You keep talking about cold starting and throttle response and I immediately think $15 accelerator pump and a good choke adjustment.

Haha hey mate, thats the first thing we did when we got the boat, full service to the motor, fitted remote oil drain, outdrive bellows etc etc. but yeah reading back through my own posts I would have thought the same.

 

[evolution1985]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

G'day scott
Yep your pretty spot on with that, I'm just not sure other than the fuel, cams and timing whats different on the marine side. I've since spent allot of time searching through the threads here and took a 6pack over to my mate engine shop and we went through all the pro's and cons. My engine is a great runner no noise and purrs like a kitten, (gotta get a captains call to make it roar!!)
Basically after all my thought process behind it I was right as to the advantages and disadvantage. but bubba outlined it best in the other thread that was linked to mine. I wasn't taking into account the load aspect. so for a properly tuned 4bl carb to a fully tuned injection system even running the boat every day the fuel savings would only be marginal. on the spread sheet we did, it was about 2.8% over 7 days. to make that viable I would have to use the boat solid for 5 years (not including winter) to break even.

The other option I was looking at was a small blower, as I have one sitting in my garage. Down side is what power and torque my alpha one can handle. the horsepower and fuel savings gain I would get would be minuscule as to keep the reliability Ive been told not to go over 300HP on these drives. Torque unknown?(not looking good tho)

So far my best bet for what I truly want is to run a custom inlet manifold (my mate makes them) new carb and properly tune it.
although I am a HUGE fan of injection and the benefits that come from it, It seems that not many of them actually apply for boating, not in the water sports side anyway. Cruising and just general boating maybe, we didn't run that through the program.

Although In saying this, IF my motor was a bucket of poop and I wanted to fun a new engine YES I would buy a crate motor with injection. As the cost in not a ton more than a carby to buy a crate motor.
Its been good hearing both sides for this and I know that I haven't been overly clear with what I was trying to describe. The hot start issue came down to a blocked jet so that was simple. the throttle response has been shown to me that my hand throttle is a POS and is just sticky. so a new one has been ordered.

 

[Howard Sterndrive]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

I have read several reviews online - I can't find anything positive about that system. A few stories of tinkering with it for months, then ripping it off and throwing it away. not one person claiming success with it I can find.

typical reviews:
http://reviews.ebay.com/Holley-marine-projection-2d-throttle-body-system?ugid=10000000001898277

http://reviews.ebay.com/Holley-Marine-Projection-2D-700-21?ugid=10000000010123751

 

[evolution1985]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

G'day E4O, yeah I really do enjoy engine building, I used to own a custom shop here so Everything thing I own with a motor gets played with. The whole aspect of a programmable efi system is good in theory but as allot of people here on this and other threads have stated the end wont justify the means. Im glad tho that after hearing from everyone here say pretty much the same as my engine builder and after running the theory sync software to get a projected runout of the differences then I've pretty much been slapped into line.

that and after the misses came home and talked to baz, that the amount of money I would spend on getting it all to how I would want the efi set up I could buy a new custom trailer. and as our trailer is a POS it looks like that'll be done.

 

[evolution1985]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

I have read several reviews online - I can't find anything positive about that system. A few stories of tinkering with it for months, then ripping it off and throwing it away. not one person claiming success with it I can find.

typical reviews:
http://reviews.ebay.com/Holley-marine-projection-2d-throttle-body-system?ugid=10000000001898277

http://reviews.ebay.com/Holley-Marine-Projection-2D-700-21?ugid=10000000010123751

well that just takes the cake doesn't it. I didn't even know you could find reviews on ebay. this is why before undertaking ANYTHING im not sure about 100% im going to check here. thanks heaps guys

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

G'day all wanting to put fuel injection on my carby 5.7 with alpha drive. Has anyone heard good or bad things about the holley kit? or does anyone know of a better fuel injection kit. this is about $1000 so for me it seems better than a replacement motor. my engine is fine i just cant stand carbys in a boat I use for skiing, Im hoping to get much better throttle response with what ever kit I use.

cheers guys

Make no mistake FI is far superior to a carb...However understand this for the same money one can doulbe the HP in a carbed engine vs spending money on a injected engine that reaches its absolute max potential. With that said if you have a 15000 dollar build and another 3000 for FI..who cares it is...what..i want.


Spending 2000 to 3000 thousand for efi is crazy....for a 10% gain in HP on a engine that costs 4k..another words a 350 hp nets 385

With all that said i am building a 4.3 with FI to its max potential... But all the parts where there when it started all the money is goint towards cams springs lifters and tuning maybe 1600. If it ends up at 300hp i will be delighted.....Tinker away

 

[E4ODnut]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

Evo,
I don't mean to put you off programmable EFI, I just want you to know that for your application I suspect that you would be much happier (read more money and time left for beer) if you stuck with what you've got. EFI shines particularly well at lighter engine loads for fuel economy because you can lean the mixture out and advance the timing to suit. The benefits decrease as the manifold pressures increase because you have to enrich the mixture to get better power. At or close to WOT there is little difference between a well tuned carb and a well tuned EFI set up. This has been stated many times and from my experience it is quite true.

I expect that most of your time will be spent with manifold pressures of ~75 KPA or greater ( ~7.5" HG vacuum or less). At these throttle settings the benefits would be minimal. If you're into it for the challenge and experience then that's another matter.

 

[evolution1985]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

Evo,
I don't mean to put you off programmable EFI, I just want you to know that for your application I suspect that you would be much happier (read more money and time left for beer) if you stuck with what you've got. EFI shines particularly well at lighter engine loads for fuel economy because you can lean the mixture out and advance the timing to suit. The benefits decrease as the manifold pressures increase because you have to enrich the mixture to get better power. At or close to WOT there is little difference between a well tuned carb and a well tuned EFI set up. This has been stated many times and from my experience it is quite true.

I expect that most of your time will be spent with manifold pressures of ~75 KPA or greater ( ~7.5" HG vacuum or less). At these throttle settings the benefits would be minimal. If you're into it for the challenge and experience then that's another matter.

and that is exactly what the computer showed us. You haven't put me off at all. My theory was do whatever s needed to make this the boat that won't need anything when done, so to speak. so do all upgrades and build it how we want it. (we can't find one how we want it) I love a challenge but i have allot of experience when it comes to modifying, building, mechanical (auto) and electrical. but limited to experience when it comes to marine applications. I really didn't take into account the load aspect of the setup. my bad. As baz (my engine builder) stated im better off with the whole KISS thing and not waste money on something that won't give me "more bang for my buck" so to speak. If when I pull the motor the block is corroded and not worth saving I will be buying an injected 350, but that will be a complete motor.

I really do appreciate all the advice im getting on here, its helping allot. some things I am set on, Like paint or gelcoat the hull, (either way its getting done), the layout for the seats and what electronics I put in. but for something like efi if I could get away with it for only a couple of grand and have noticeable differences Id do it, but that appears to not be the case.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

G'day scott
The other option I was looking at was a small blower, as I have one sitting in my garage. Down side is what power and torque my alpha one can handle. the horsepower and fuel savings gain I would get would be minuscule as to keep the reliability Ive been told not to go over 300HP on these drives. Torque unknown?(not looking good tho)

So far my best bet for what I truly want is to run a custom inlet manifold (my mate makes them) new carb and properly tune it.
although I am a HUGE fan of injection and the benefits that come from it, It seems that not many of them actually apply for boating, not in the water sports side anyway. Cruising and just general boating maybe, we didn't run that through the program.

There are many people with a severely built 383 engines in front of an Alpha out drive putting out more than 300 hp. synthetic oil and an easy hole shot are required. here is one example http://www.rlcpe.com/images/projects/tripple_digits/project_trippledigits.html

regarding a custom manifold, if your in salt water without a closed cooling setup, make sure you have bronze in contact with the water. Aluminum doesnt last that long. I am using a dual alloy casting. The intake says Volvo Penta, it is a variation of the Edelbrock style intake casted by Buddy Barr castings. they cast the bronze parts first, then cast the aluminum around it. If you have closed cooling, you can do what you want.

 

[evolution1985]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

well yes I would say that is marine hot rodding at its best. so its safe to say I could probably run my small blower? I was thinking of running around 6-8pd boost? yeah I hear you on the manifold, I was planning on running closed cooling anyway. It just seems like a much better idea all round?

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

I believe by the time you inject a 350..put a charger on it and then tune the motor it would have been cheaper to do a 502 and end up with a stronger more reliable power plant. But that just me.

 

[evolution1985]

Re: MARINE PRO-JECTION THROTTLE BODY INJECTION. Any good?

oh sorry I think theres a little confusion here. By "blower" I meant a 6-71 supercharger. I definitively agree with what everyone's been saying about these injection kits, and I appreciate the help. The blower Idea came about as I have one in my garage. If I do have the 300hp limit I don't want to risk it and have to rebuild the drive to accommodate. as its not just my boat ( the misses as well) I would get killed if I turned this into my next performance toy.
I wasn't sure on the HP rating of the alpha one drives and obviously Im not just going to build a motor and hope for the best. Im really going for reliability over outright performance, I have the tools, the knowledge (automotive) and some cash, but its not everything is it. As I had no idea what the marine injection was like I thought I'd check, and the blower... well as I said I have one here. I don't really want to get into the supercharger vs turbo vs injection vs naturally aspirated here as it would be an epic discussion. The horsepower limit on the drive is what's stopping me from doing anything silly like running a big block, high boost blower and injection. also that and the misses haha. but in all seriousness its fun to drive as well as it is, gets over 50mph (gauges not gps) and does what I want so I won't be doing anything rediculous to it. But I will be doing everything to the highest standard possible and within reason money really isn't an issue, I can always rob a bank or two I suppose.