Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

bigdee

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

the temperature increase/decrease of the air is instantaneous when it is compressed/released....the build up over time, is heat being transferred from the system to it's surroundings.

bingo!
 

1980Coronado

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

Ok...so that instantaneous temperature increase doesn't affect the pressure measured at the compressed volume?
 

bruceb58

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

Ok...so that instantaneous temperature increase doesn't affect the pressure measured at the compressed volume?
I hope you don't actually believe anything Bigdee says. He is the same one that doesn't believe any heat is generated by compression because he doesn't feel hot air blow out the spark plug hole.
Cuzz, I ain't ever felt no hot air coming outa the spark plug hole.
 

bigdee

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

I hope you don't actually believe anything Bigdee says. He is the same one that doesn't believe any heat is generated by compression because he doesn't feel hot air blow out the spark plug hole.

I was just putting a little redneck humor in it.......you guys are wayyyyyyyyyyy too serious!
 

1980Coronado

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

I was just putting a little redneck humor in it.......you guys are wayyyyyyyyyyy too serious!

Just havin fun with it......I like brain teasers and I haven't done any thermo stuff in years....In this case you can't ignore the instantaneous increase in temp due to the compression, because it is a much larger factor than I originally thought...Bruce is correct. There's more going on in there besides a simple change in volume.
 

1980Coronado

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

Ok....I got it.......Was just doing some reading about cranking pressure and how it's calculated. Since valve timing affects the volume of the cylinder the numbers in this example will ultimately not be usable in predicting the cranking pressure...but I can show you the math. To predict the number accurately we would need to know the effective stroke and effective compression ratio based on the valve timing, since the valve doesn't open at top dead or bottom dead center. Anyway....here is how they calculated the cranking pressure.

Cranking Pressure (absolute) CP = (CRE^1.2 ? AP) where CRE = Compression Ratio, Effective and AP = Atmospheric pressure

"At cranking speed, the absolute cranking pressure (?CP?) is a function of the 1.2 power of the effective compression ratio (i.e., for 8:1 compression ratio, use 8^1.2) times atmospheric pressure (14.7 psi @ sea level, &c.). This adjustment (1.2 power) is a polytropic value used in preference to the traditional adiabatic value (1.4) for the ratio of variable heats for air and similar gases at the temperatures present. This compensates for the temperature rise caused by compression, as well as heat lost to the cylinder. 1.2 is not accurate in all cases, since the amount of heat lost will vary among engines based on design, size and materials used, but provides useful results for purposes of comparison."

So for our example we have the published compression ratio of 8.8...the effective ratio would be less than this. 8.8 ^1.2 = 13.6.....13.6 x 14.7psia = 199.8 absolute pressure or 185 psig....Final Answer Regis
 

bigdee

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

Check this out

http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/compression/cranking_pressure.shtml

If you put in a 180 degree cam(not actually possible in real life) to get 100% stroke, the max PSI will be 225PSI.

Notice that the temperatures are around 450?F

Good link bruce.........without data we are just another person with an opinion. You and 1980coronado proved your point with data to back it up I'm impressed.....now let's have some more fun.
 

sschefer

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

As far as I know, there are no autos in production that use ionization pressure sensors and they would never work for what is being measured here.

So what vehicles have them?

LOL, you are really out of touch aren't you.. Almost all Direct Fuel Injection engines read ionization through resistance changes at the spark plug. This is why you must replace plugs with exactly the same plug that was spec'd by the manufacturer. Wikipedia is out of date on this matter if you're using that for your knowledge base. Ionization is widely used to achieve maximum fuel economy on most all of the newer vehicles that are expected to meet 2012 California emission standards.
 

bigdee

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

OK guys Just for the heck of it I made an adapter to screw into a spark plug that had a bi-metal dial thermometer that protruded into the combustion chamber about 1-1/4 inches I then cranked the engine (250cc ATV) for 5 seconds= 5 degree rise. 60 seconds=48 degree rise above ambient or 128 degrees. I realize that the temp at max compression was higher than this but the bi-metal thermometer could not react fast enough and then the decompression stroke cooled the air. Also the compression ratio was lower than normal because the part of the cylinder head that held the spark plug was now being used as a thermal well for the thermometer which increased the volume slightly.
 

scanman

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

You guys are CRAZY! I just bought a new compression guage. I'll post the actual number in about 30 minutes! Thanks ya'll!
 

RogersJetboat454

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

LOL, you are really out of touch aren't you.. Almost all Direct Fuel Injection engines read ionization through resistance changes at the spark plug. This is why you must replace plugs with exactly the same plug that was spec'd by the manufacturer. Wikipedia is out of date on this matter if you're using that for your knowledge base. Ionization is widely used to achieve maximum fuel economy on most all of the newer vehicles that are expected to meet 2012 California emission standards.

To back up that statement (even though I hate to admit I ever had any involvement with this car manufacturer :facepalm:), Isuzu was using the ionization readings through spark plugs all the way back to the year 2000 on the multi-port injected 3.2L V6.

Oh God... I just recalled my dark years turning wrenches... I need a drink!:(:D
 

bruceb58

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

I agree I am dated on that technology. I actually worked for Delco/Delphi during the mid 90s and we were working on different technology for cylinder pressure sensors back then. We were using diaphragms with lasers being deflected off of the diaphragm. We were doing Fourier analysis on the pressure signature to adjust spark advance.

I found this:
http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/powertrain/gas/ignsys/ionized/
 

RogersJetboat454

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

I agree I am dated on that technology. I actually worked for Delco/Delphi during the mid 90s and we were working on different technology for cylinder pressure sensors back then. We were using diaphragms with lasers being deflected off of the diaphragm. We were doing Fourier analysis on the pressure signature to adjust spark advance.

I found this:
http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/powertrain/gas/ignsys/ionized/

Yep, it was Delphi who made the Ion sensing system for Isuzu along with 3/4 of all the other electrical stuff.

Interestingly enough, I hear VW is using pressure sensitive glow plugs with I believe a piezoelectric setup to sense cylinder pressure in the new TDI engines. Similar to your diaphragm and laser setup I suppose.
 

1980Coronado

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

Man....I'm still waiting for the results of the test....long 30 mins!
 

bigdee

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

Man....I'm still waiting for the results of the test....long 30 mins!

I hope he's alright. I mean with all that compression it could've blown that gauge off and hit him in the head and all that hot air would've singed his eyebrows!
 

1980Coronado

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

I hope he's alright. I mean with all that compression it could've blown that gauge off and hit him in the head and all that hot air would've singed his eyebrows!

Thanks for the laugh...can you tell things are a bit slow at work!
 

scanman

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

OK. Got the eyebrows shaved & the trailer tires replaced! Sorry 'bout the delay. Drama at home. The test results were a mere 24psi test 1. 28psi test 2. 28psi test 3. I kinda figure, in my backwoods, shadetree, garage in the livin room kinda way, that the rings are compressin, but the valves are leakin by. any ideas?

BTW look what I did today!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cFOIUkxvFs

This was a friend of mine who started this Huey for the 1st time in over a year, & this was the 1st real attempt at flight. The tail rotor needs to be balanced, but it's gonna fly soon!
 

bruceb58

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

Put some oil in the cylinder and repeat the test.
 

scanman

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Re: Math question about engine cylinder volume/pressure

OK, I'll do that today! Thanks Bruceb58.
 
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