Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this OK.

Clams Canino

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

I use a reversing drill and it delivers a better pattern overall. I enter with it staionary, but spin it as soon as it's in and stop and reverse it from inside.<br /><br />As a quick thought, if you've had a piston melt-down often there is aluminum deposited on the walls. Use muriatic acid and a Q-tip to remove it all before honing. After honing use 409 and someone with small hands to clean the bore very well. Then oil it well with TCW-3 or spray fogger all over it.<br /><br />-W
 

rodbolt

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Clams is correct on the cleaning, I use dawn dishwashing liquid,hot water and a toilet bowl brush and a tooth brush, cleanliness is absolutly critical or the whole project is a wash.
 

Clams Canino

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Heh.......... my wife has small hands. When I'm done with it I just turn it over to her and get it back oild and good to go. :) <br /><br />-W
 

crem1

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

The TCW-3 that you mentioned earlier is the oil of choice while honing? Do you spray or pour as quantity of lubricant would be critical at this point, yes? I got a feeling this is a two man job?<br /> <br /><br />Alex
 

Clams Canino

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

I fill an old ashtray with it, and then slowly rotate the balls in it, then do a cylinder. And reapet for the next 5.<br /><br />-W
 

AMD Rules

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

My technique involved a clean paper coffee cup, and one of those 10 cent paint brushes. Put oil in the cup, and use the paint brush to coat the cylinder walls & stones.
 

crem1

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Getting back to the "mirror finish". How many hours of operation do you guys figure it takes to go from a cross-hatch to a mirror finish?<br />Assuming everything else is allright does the compression in a cylinder start dropping upon the advent of a mirror finish? <br /><br />Alex
 

emckelvy

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Well, the "usual" break in of a motor is supposed to take 20 hours. So you can assume at that time, the parts have 'run in' to a sufficient level that they have become 'acclimated' to each other.<br /><br />But you're confusing the need to have a cross-hatched surface for the rings to 'bite' into upon first run-in, with the conditions that a motor that's well-broken-in will experience.<br /><br />Once the parts have seated-in, things will of course get smoother. That doesn't mean that a well broken-in cylinder which has a smooth 'mirror-finished' surface is beginning to fail. To the contrary, the fit between the piston rings and cylinder walls is getting better. Of course as the motor accumulates a lot of time on it, there will be actual wear to the cylinders, but I expect you'll find that the majority of 2-stroke outboards are never run to the point of just flat 'wearing out' but experience other problems such as overheating, use of poor quality oil which leads to ring scuffing, or other issues such as water intrusion or detonation, to the point of failure.<br /><br />So, what the cross-hatch is doing for you is facilitating the intitial seating of the rings. <br /><br />If you don't de-glaze the cylinders you may find that the rings never break in properly and may fail prematurely. The cylinder walls are TOO smooth and will not properly wear the microscopic 'high spots' off the new rings which prevents them from seating.<br /><br />Don't get too an*l about the process, I used to use Marvel Mystery oil as a lube, also WD-40, no adverse affects regardless. In the old days I didn't have the benefit of these forums and just honed the old Mercs out until they looked right. You can readily see and feel the difference between a non-honed and honed cylinder, you'll see the nice even cross-hatches and can feel them with your fingernail, in comparison to the very smooth surface of an unhoned cyl wall.<br /><br />You only want to hone out until you 'clean' up the cylinder and get a uniform pattern of cross-hatches. Beyond that you're just wearing out the bore unnecessarily.<br /><br />You wouldn't believe what I did to my old 1000 Merc and it still lived many many hours of hard water-skiing, and lots of fishing time after I sold it. As long as you don't go crazy you should get good results. I usually would place the hone in the cyl and then start the drill. Stop the drill in the bore then remove it. Just visualize the pattern you're making as you move your arm up and down, and you should be able to get close to that 'ideal' cross-hatch. If it's not perfect, it should still work as it's far better than an unhoned cylinder.<br /><br />Anyway, HTH & Happy Honing.........ed
 

Clams Canino

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

What Ed said.... you really can't believe some of the real live garbage I've seen running at better than 90% peak performance. <br /><br />Here's one I'm ashamed to talk about: <br />About 20 years ago a buddy of mine took out a 3 cylinder 70hp (mini-tower) with gas that was unmixed (not his fault). It soon locked up.<br /><br />Being a motorcycle mechanic at the time (and being a visitor) I had no resources to deal with critter. We tore it apart anyway :D and all that was available in town were 6 rings and the endcap seals. He wanted to try a "temporary repair" so as to "save the weekend". (in Main you only get 20 weekends to boat)<br /><br />Holding my nose (in more ways than one) we used muriatic to clean the walls, used a little kid and sandpaper to break the glaze, re-ringed the top two rings (after sandpapering the grooves so the rings would go in right), squeezed the bottoms of the pistons in a vice to account for the missing aluminum from the skirts to avoid slap(they weren't "too" bad hehe) and we put it back together with him understanding that at the end of that summer it *had* to come apart and get bored .015 over with 3 new pistons etc etc.<br /><br />That was 20 years ago. The motor has since left ski-boat service and now runs a barge. It's never been apart again and he long ago decided it had not enough cash value to rip it down while it was running OK. It's become kind of a "science project" to see if it will *ever* die and what will finally kill it. Granted, it has an easy life of a short boating season and barge only service, but the "temporary repair" was meant to last for only about 8 weekends or about 40 hours. That was 400 weekends ago. That motor was the biggest possible "hack job" that could be done. And the bastich STILL runs. <br /><br />-W
 

rodbolt

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

clams<br /> my 120 jonnyrude is a simialer prject, I can not belive it aint died.after a buddy dropped ascrew though #3 in 95 I built it cuyting every corner. I bought it from him in 01, still rums and is stil oil injected VRO. splain that one, I have not had te hood off in almost 2 years and its seen no maint since 00
 

AMD Rules

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Those are the stories we need to hear now and then. Especially for the backyard mechanics who are never sure if they've followed every step within allowable tolerances. Perhaps my motor has a chance after all <grin>
 

crem1

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

You guys are just great I'm really proud to be a member of this website, this is what it should be, people helping people.<br />Thanks Guys<br /><br />Alex
 

crem1

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

"one of the first signs of collapsed piston skirts or excessive skirt to wall clearence is hard starting and poor idle when all else checks ok" <br />I need a more detailed explanation as to what a skirt is(location)<br /><br />Alex
 

rodbolt

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

the skirt is the longer portion of the piston that on some engines is 90# from the wristpin plane, others used a full skirt, still others used cut outs in the skirt. normally the piston is not round when new but actually elongated, its called cam ground. its for a more controled expansion. thats why if your going to reuse a piston it really needs to go back in the same hole it came out of. they do tend to wear to fit the bore.<br /> lots of corners can be cut and produce a decently reliable motor, takes a few years some reading and some common sense to figgure out which corners can be cut.
 

jleus

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Rodbolt I believe you mentioned checking piston to wall clearance at the skirt with a feeler gauge. Is there method to your check? What clearences are you looking for? I see pushing the skirt to one side, getting a fair "estimate" with the thickness gauge and calling half of that number the piston to cylinder clearance at the skirt. Do you measure with the piston at the top or the bottom of its stroke. Thanks for your insights.
 

jheron

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

crem1 you can/should practice with the hone on a soup can or 2, that will help you get the feel for it. :) <br />Jon
 

rodbolt

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

as my math skills improved I dont use the feeler gage method much anymore but if you do on a used bore check it at both ends of the stroke with the piston in its running orintation. its not listed in most specs but its the difference from bore size to piston size divided by 2.<br /> if the bore is 4" and the piston is 3.995 your wall clearence will be .0025. measuing the actual bore and piston is a better method that requires less feel.
 

crem1

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

jheron mentioned practicing on a soup can. The problem of that would be measuring success. Are we using a bore gauge to measure our progress or success?<br /><br />Alex
 

crem1

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

AMD Rules website has some great pictures of his project. You did mention you had difficulty with the exhaust port cover removal(bolts?)<br />Got any pictures of that, would be interesting to see the snapped off bolts.(what not to do)<br />Was that the hardest part of motor disassembly?<br /><br />Alex
 

crem1

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Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

Re: Mercury 150 Ring Gap .040 (STD) on honed cylinder within tolerance - is this

I think AMD Rules has gone South for the winter.<br />So what is the poop on the bolts that break when trying to remove them(exhaust port). Is this phenomenon salt water related, age, poor design, or heat?<br /><br />Alex
 
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