Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Plastic carbs? I am on sideline watching with interest as i had the same issues. My bowls were warped. Getting them flat helped a lot.

I will be quiet now:redface:
dave

Thanks Dave, my carbs are plastic and look good, not spitting anymore, had the floats to0 high. Running under load is still bad, will be testing out the ignition soon.

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Who said disconnect the shifter?

The manual says to do it before you begin lync & sync. I did the lync & sync again and the motor now does not conk in idle but is still not running right, it appears to lose and gain power erratically, like if the timing was off or not all cylinders were running.

Get the spark tested, and get those primary voltages off each coil.

Ok, finally got the DVA tester and it looked to me at first that I had one bad coil #6 and one poor one #2, but after further investigation, those coils worked on different cylinders so to me it looks like I have a bad power pack or coil charger. This certainly explains why the starboard head felt much hotter than the port side.

Here are the results the first time I tested the output of the coils

#1 @ 159 - #2 @ 79
#3 @ 161 - #4 @ 165
#5 @ 147 - #6 @ 0

Here are the results on the input of the coils (the lead from the power pack):

#1 @ 1.1 - #2 @ 1.2
#3 @ 1.1 - #4 @ .8
#5 @ 1.1 - #6 @ .9

But when I removed the #2 & #6 coils & tried them on the #4 coil input lead from the power pack both coils were around 100, which I thought was strange? So it looks like the coils are ok, but the power to the coils is not right and is inconsistant. Also, when I put everything back where they go and tested the #4 coil, the value dropped to around 100???

What are your thoughts and recommendations?

Thanks for your help,
Pete

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Regarding the disconnecting of the shifter...I believe the manual would say disconnect the throttle cable, not the shifter cable. Then proceed with link and sync.

Well, don't know what you did regarding those measurements.

The lead from the power pack to the individual spark coils is the only lead (at the coils) you should be testing with the DVA. They will be orange in color, some having striped runners. You should never try to measure the output of the coil to the spark plug, because the voltage is way too high, and will likely blow your meter. The spark out voltage is way up in the 25-35 thousand volt range.

If your meter is still working, only measure the input to the coils (called the primary lead) like this:

Set meter to read 200 VDC using the DVA switch/scale.
Connect the black meter lead to a good engine ground.
Leave the wire from the pack to the coil connected, and slide the red meter probe up under the boot to make contact with the metal connector. Start engine, read voltage. Should be above 150 volts, I did mine yesterday, and it was reading 179 on all 6. If you can't slide the probe up under there, use a small length of wire, stripped at each end, wrap one end around the post on the coil, and then put the boot back on. Now you have a pigtail of wire sticking out from under the boot where you can attach the meter.

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Sorry, I have little experience with outboards and no one in the area to help me so bare with me, please.

I did test the orange leads from the power pack, with my volt meter on 200 VDC, through a DVA adapter so I do not know about a DVA meter scale? I used a good ground and was able to get a clip on the lead under the boot, but with the lead not connected to the coil and the readings were all around 1.1? So is it important to have this test done with the orange lead connected to the coil, if so, looks like I will have to do it again...but, #6 is dead, no volts. I also connected the timing light to each spark plug wire and all had good steady blinking lights except for #6, no light, dead. Also, #2 is weak. When I took #6 coil off and tested it at #4, it had an output reading but not when I put it back on #6.

Question, if you have one good cylinder reading and 2 bad ones on one bank, I would think that is more of a power pack problem than a coil charger, what do you think under that scenario...provided the re-test shows same results.

Thanks,
Pete

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Ok...so these voltages 1.1 volts were taken AFTER you tried the DVA adapter measurement on the big secondary spark plug wires? That's how I read your post that shows you measured the output of each coil, then the input of each coil.

If so, you might consider that dva adapter toast. There is a diode inside that is not rated for 30kv (which is what you put to it when measuring the plug wires). Mine is rated at 1kv (I built the one on this site), and it should never see anything above 400 volts anyway.
Test your dva adapter by measuring the wallsocket voltage. Set the meter on 200vdc, insert one probe in one side of the socket, the other probe in the other side. Doesn't matter which side is which. You should read about 165-170 volts if the DVA adapter is still working. Be careful....if the DVA adapter diode is SHORTED, you will get a big spark/arc when you insert that last probe. USE CAUTION.

Now..on to the issue. Measure each orange wire with it connected to the coil.
I like the results of your timing light test. That is a quick and dirty way to see if a plug is not firing, and you found #2 and #6 to be obviously different from the others...so, good testing there.

You can't run it like this, but you sure can test it like this....
#4 works? right? #6 is dead? right? Take the #6 orange/green wire and put it on the #4 coil post. Now, the timing light will not flash for #4, and it should prove that it is definitely not the ignition coils, but is back "upstream" in the pack, or possibly in the timer base.

Are you cleaning with a wire brush the coil mounting bosses when you are R&Ring these coils? Please do so if not. Those coils must have a good ground at those bosses. Might want to use a dielectric grease when re-mounting to prevent corrosion on that aluminum boss.

You are probably at the stage where you need to lift that pack off and let it hang off the back. BE SURE TO RECONNECT THE PACK GROUND WIRE TO AN ENGINE GROUND. I use the top starboard #1 coil mounting bolt. I would lift the pack, and then pull apart each rubber connector from the timer base to the pack. Look carefully for corrosion, and look for pushed back pins that may not be making contact. There are four wires in those rubber boots. The colored wires...blue, purple and green are the trigger input signals to the pack. One wire for each cylinder. For example, if you were to cut the blue on only one side, you would have one dead cylinder on that side. I am sorry, I do not know which wire color is for which cylinder.
Making an educated guess.....I would GUESS that the blue one is for either 1 or 2, the purple one is for either 3 or 4, and the green one is for either 5 or 6. Why? Because the pack output wires.... orange/BLUE goes for 1 and 2, and the orange/GREEN goes for 5 and 6....I bet that is the pattern.

DON'T LET WIRES GET HUNG IN THE ROTATING FLYWHEEL.

Since you have one dead cyl, look for a fault in a single wire from the timer base to the pack. Since #2 is weak, the fault MAY be corrosion. Both are in the port side connector from the timer base to pack. I would start with that rubber boot.

If the connections look good, you can actually measure with your DVA the voltage at each of these wires. Should be very low, 1 or 2 volts, so you need to switch your scale on your meter down to the 2 volt range. If you find a wire with zero volts, your timer base is not outputting a signal to the pack....and therefore not firing the dead #6. See how this works? Any of it making sense?

Considering #1,3,5 were sparking, I would bet the starboard rubber connector/boot will have no proiblems at all.

If the connections and boots look good, then it is likely a bad pack.

The charge coil output from the stator to the pack is in two pairs of brown wires. The voltage on these wires will be very close to the same as the voltage measured at the primary of the coils. Remember my 179v measurement? Well the two pairs of browns will read very close to that same 179v. May vary a bit, but it is not critical.

So, if you have good spark on 1,3,5, then the starboard charge coil is good. If you have no spark at all on 2,4,6, the port charge coil is bad, or the connector is bad...something like that.

Also, you cannot rule out the pack as being bad on ANY of the above statements.
Also remember that the charge coils are part of the stator, and if bad, the whole stator must be replaced.

Anyway, once you understand these basics, the debugging of these ignition systems gets fairly straightforward.

 

[Cofe]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Milky fuel = water

Check fuel tank, water will settle to the bottom of the tank where the fuel suction tube is.
Just a note, E10 gas loves to accumulate water, and break down old rubber fuel hoses. "Old rubber and grain alcohol ='
Start with fresh regular fuel and seafoam additive. My 2%

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Thanks, will follow all of your test procedures and report back.

Are you cleaning with a wire brush the coil mounting bosses when you are R&Ring these coils? Please do so if not. Those coils must have a good ground at those bosses. Might want to use a dielectric grease when re-mounting to prevent corrosion on that aluminum boss.

Yes, I did.

You are probably at the stage where you need to lift that pack off and let it hang off the back. BE SURE TO RECONNECT THE PACK GROUND WIRE TO AN ENGINE GROUND. I use the top starboard #1 coil mounting bolt. I would lift the pack, and then pull apart each rubber connector from the timer base to the pack. Look carefully for corrosion, and look for pushed back pins that may not be making contact.

I pulled the pack last night and pulled the connectors off one at a time and found NO corrosion. I will follow your testing advise and report back.

Since you have one dead cyl, look for a fault in a single wire from the timer base to the pack. Since #2 is weak, the fault MAY be corrosion. Both are in the port side connector from the timer base to pack. I would start with that rubber boot.

If the connections look good, you can actually measure with your DVA the voltage at each of these wires. Should be very low, 1 or 2 volts, so you need to switch your scale on your meter down to the 2 volt range. If you find a wire with zero volts, your timer base is not outputting a signal to the pack....and therefore not firing the dead #6. See how this works? Any of it making sense?

So a timer base can be bad and not send a signal to one or two cylinders?

If the connections and boots look good, then it is likely a bad pack.

Then not likely a bad timer base or coil charger?

The charge coil output from the stator to the pack is in two pairs of brown wires. The voltage on these wires will be very close to the same as the voltage measured at the primary of the coils. Remember my 179v measurement? Well the two pairs of browns will read very close to that same 179v. May vary a bit, but it is not critical.

So, if you have good spark on 1,3,5, then the starboard charge coil is good. If you have no spark at all on 2,4,6, the starboard charge coil is bad, or the connector is bad...something like that.

So its either good or bad, not inbetween, like with my #4 being ok but not #2 & #6?

Also, you cannot rule out the pack as being bad on ANY of the above statements.

Boy, it looks like its the pack, but will test it out.

Thank you so much for all of this usefull information.

Pete

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

"So its either good or bad, not inbetween, like with my #4 being ok but not #2 & #6?
"


No not so....any combination of faults could occur. That's why all the testing.
I was just giving examples...

I bet the very experienced guys reading this are saying Pack Pack Pack....and truly, I am leaning to the pack myself. But again, I say, if it were mine, I would do the testing on the input side of the pack just to be sure that the timer base is OK. That's what I would do.

You never say....Your DVA adapter...is it Ok? Did you use it on the plug wires at first? Did it blow the adapter and/or meter?

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Sorry...forgot to answer your timer base question...

Yes, there are diodes inside the timer base. If one diode is faulty, it can affect only one cylinder. The whole timer base would then be considered bad.

Timer bases are very hard to test with an ohmmeter. You almost always have to have an older "needle style" analog meter, because the newer digital VOMs don't put out enough current to forward bias the diodes inside the timer base. You get very erratic results when using the new digital VOMs.

It is very meter sensitive. Even the "diode check" function gives erratic results.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Also, in this statement I made earlier....

"So, if you have good spark on 1,3,5, then the starboard charge coil is good. If you have no spark at all on 2,4,6, the starboard charge coil is bad, or the connector is bad...something like that."

There is an error. I have edited the original, but the error is that the second word "starboard" should have read "port".

It should say"


So, if you have good spark on 1,3,5, then the starboard charge coil is good. If you have no spark at all on 2,4,6, the port charge coil is bad, or the connector is bad...something like that."

Sorry if that threw you off.....

And realize that this is just an example...it might present with a different symptom, nothing is concrete....just a possible example of a failure mode.

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

You never say....Your DVA adapter...is it Ok? Did you use it on the plug wires at first? Did it blow the adapter and/or meter?

DVA tested 165 volts DC in 120 AC outlet?

Ok, truth is I did test output side of all 6 coils first with meter lead directly on coil (spark plug wire disconnected from coil). All was fine until I re-tested the coils after they were moved around and the meters black ground wire poped of the ground screw and the meters reading faded badly, so I guess I learned a valuable lesson here.

Thanks, will test and report, Pete

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

DVA tested 165 volts DC in 120 AC outlet?

Ok, truth is I did test output side of all 6 coils first with meter lead directly on coil (spark plug wire disconnected from coil). All was fine until I re-tested the coils after they were moved around and the meters black ground wire poped of the ground screw and the meters reading faded badly, so I guess I learned a valuable lesson here.

Thanks, will test and report, Pete

Yes....165 volts DC using the DVA adapter is right.

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Ok, tested the timer base and re-did the testing on the orange wire coil inputs (from power pack) as you described above using my DVA adapter, had someone to turn the key while I worked the tester, here are the results:

TIMER BASE:

Port Side (if you recall, #6 was previously dead via timing light)

green wire @2.7 vdc
white wire @ 1.81 vdc
blue wire @ 2.65 vdc
purple (the one above the other 3 in the plug) @ 3.17 vdc

Starboard Side

green wire @1.05 vdc
Black/white @ 0 vdc
blue wire @ 1.03 vdc
purple (the one above the other 3 in the plug) @ .91 vdc

POWER PACK to COIL INPUT:

Port Side

#2 - 1.9 vdc
#4 - 118 vdc
#6 - 41 vdc

Starboard Side

#1 - 122 vdc
#3 - 120 vdc
#5 - 115 vdc

Since these numbers were a bit different from my last testing, I was thinking I totally did the first one wrong as you indicated and possibly dammaged my DVA adapter (or maybe something else) whereas it may not be giving me the accurate data. So I thought I should test the Stator Coil charger wires to each bank. Problem was, I got 0 readings from all the wires before and after cranking??? I double checked the wires, they look to be the right ones, so how do you test it then?

STATOR COIL CHARGER???:

Port Side

Brown/Yellow @0
Brown @0
Yellow @0

Starboard Side

Brown/Black @0
Brown/White @0
Yellow/Blue @0

It was late last night, so packed it in but not before I put everything back together and started the engine back up, still runs rough.

Thanks for all your guidance, what do you think I should do now?
Pete

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Also, on another note, the tach has recently begun to act up, it is floating above 0 when off but does appear to work when running? I heard that when your rectifier begins to fail, the tach shows faults and rectifiers mess up stators, etc...???

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

TIMER BASE:

Port Side (if you recall, #6 was previously dead via timing light)

green wire @2.7 vdc
white wire @ 1.81 vdc
blue wire @ 2.65 vdc
purple (the one above the other 3 in the plug) @ 3.17 vdc

Starboard Side

green wire @1.05 vdc
Black/white @ 0 vdc
blue wire @ 1.03 vdc
purple (the one above the other 3 in the plug) @ .91 vdc

POWER PACK to COIL INPUT:

Port Side

#2 - 1.9 vdc
#4 - 118 vdc
#6 - 41 vdc

Starboard Side

#1 - 122 vdc
#3 - 120 vdc
#5 - 115 vdc


STATOR COIL CHARGER???:

Port Side

Brown/Yellow @0
Brown @0
Yellow @0

Starboard Side

Brown/Black @0
Brown/White @0
Yellow/Blue @0

Coastal....it is hard to tell what you are doing.....I cannot tell from your post which lead is connected where when you are doing these tests.

Are you using an OMC service manual? The meter lead hookups are in there, on page 3-46 and 3-47. If you don't have the manual, I highly recommend getting one.

But....here it is in a short form.

http://www.cdielectronics.com/downloads/Johnson_Evinrude_DVA.pdf

You will read the chart in the fourth section up from the bottom, the CD6 section.

This chart will tell you what the voltages should be, and the wire colors to attach the leads to. For example, attach the meter leads to the brown and brown/yellow from the stator, and read anywhere from 150 to 400 vdc.
My engine reads 179 volts when running. There are two of these sets of brown wires, in a rubber boot, one for port, one for starboard. You may or may not be instructed to read from these individual wires to engine ground. It is tricky.

You will not need to worry about the yellows. And they are not associated with port or starboard. They are simply two yellows, feeding the reg/rect, and when running, should be outputting around 20 VAC and you don't need the DVA to measure them....they are for the battery charging circuitry (which is not the same as the charge coils...I know...I know....I didn't name these parts...) Kinda confusing.

But, it looks like the starboard side is performing correctly, but your meter is reading the voltages on the low side. Notice how consistent the timer base outputs are and how consistent the orange coil primaries are with respect to each other. actually the voltages for 4, 1, 3, and 5 look good. I bet #2 and #6 are both dead.

Notice how screwy the port side timer base wire readings are. Not at all like the starboard readings. So, is it coming from the timer base, or the pack? Did you take these measurements with the pack connected or disconnected? See what I mean...it is hard to interpret your measurements without knowing how you did the hookups.

I will see if I can get out to a copier and get the pages from the manual copied, scanned and e-mailed to you tonight. I won't post the scanned pages up here. PM me with your private e-mail address so I can add an attachment.

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Coastal....it is hard to tell what you are doing.....I cannot tell from your post which lead is connected where when you are doing these tests.

Are you using an OMC service manual? The meter lead hookups are in there, on page 3-46 and 3-47. If you don't have the manual, I highly recommend getting one.

You will read the chart in the fourth section up from the bottom, the CD6 section.

I have service manual for Evinrude/Johnson P/N 500612, but do not have the chart or CD6 section you are refering to???

This chart will tell you what the voltages should be, and the wire colors to attach the leads to. For example, attach the meter leads to the brown and brown/yellow from the stator, and read anywhere from 150 to 400 vdc.

My engine reads 179 volts when running. There are two of these sets of brown wires, in a rubber boot, one for port, one for starboard. You may or may not be instructed to read from these individual wires to engine ground. It is tricky.

I see, I tried to read them to ground but got nothing which I see from reading the book 3-44 that is what you are supposed to do first then read both leads to meter which I did not do yet...so I will follow book tonight.

But, it looks like the starboard side is performing correctly, but your meter is reading the voltages on the low side. Notice how consistent the timer base outputs are and how consistent the orange coil primaries are with respect to each other. actually the voltages for 4, 1, 3, and 5 look good. I bet #2 and #6 are both dead.

I wonder if I can simply change the port & starboard side charge coils and timer base (one at a time) to see if problem changes sides, this would rule out charge coil and timer base...but I will test. I was also thinking the coil input voltages were low all the way around (less than 150).

Notice how screwy the port side timer base wire readings are. Not at all like the starboard readings. So, is it coming from the timer base, or the pack? Did you take these measurements with the pack connected or disconnected? See what I mean...it is hard to interpret your measurements without knowing how you did the hookups.

I tested the timer base, one side at a time, one terminal at a time to ground, with the pack connected. The book page 3-46 says that I need to do this test before doing the output test (checking voltages) and if I get a reading from any timer base terminal that something is grounded, to locate and repair ground or replace timer base...BUT, book says to remove both connectors and I did not, left the other side connected to the pack so looks like I need to redue test?

I will see if I can get out to a copier and get the pages from the manual copied, scanned and e-mailed to you tonight. I won't post the scanned pages up here. PM me with your private e-mail address so I can add an attachment.

fromhowell@aol.com

Thank you for all your guidence, I am learning alot from you.

Thanks,
Pete

 

[James R]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Daselbee, great stuff. I think my 150 Faststrikes can use your information in this thread.
I have no problem with them at the moment but I am saving your stuff.
Thanks.
Just a thought. If his boat is anchored well to a trailer he can do a short run up to 4500 with the boat in the water on the ramp.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

JamesR...

Shout out to Monroe NC.
I grew up and lived in Mooresville for most of my life.
The info posted here....some of it....may not apply to optical ignitions...I never worked on an optical. No timer base for instance. Is that right???

Coastal....is the link I posted not working for you? The chart is on the cdielectronics web pages that I linked to. It is not in the OMC book.
The OMC book spells out different tests.
Some of the CDI tests I frankly do not understand.

Experts...check out the timer base voltage readings that CDI says should be the normals....I never thought that you EVER would see 100 to 400v on any timer base wires...yet CDI says yes...??????????? I normally expect 1-2 vdc with the DVA. In that last column on the link above.

Coastal...you can't change the charge coils on the stator. They are part of it, and the whole stator must be changed.

Since you have the book, I will not e-mail anything to you.

 

[CoastalPete]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Wow, boat has been in my slip and I can't use it since end of June, this is killing me! Well, on to tonights testing results:

The power pack currently on this boat is CD6AL/67 #586212.

I re-tested the Port side coil inputs and the readings were:
#2 - 8.5 vdc
#4 - 119 vdc
#6 - 3.8 vdc

I tested the STATOR CHARGE COIL per manual 3-44, both sides had 0V to ground which is what it is supposed to be at. I then tested both connectors to meter, the PORT side was 155 vdc and the STARBOARD side was at 157 vdc, so the charge coil is GOOD.

I tested the TIMER BASE COIL per manual 3-46, both sides had 0V to ground which is what it is supposed to be. I then tested all the connectors on each side per book, here are the results:

PORT Side:
Green C - .87
White D - N/A
Blue A - .77
Purple B - 1.32

STARBOARD Side:
Green C - 0
Black/White - N/A
Blue A - .91
Purple B - .87

Since I have one reading that is less than .2vdc, the book says to do a Sensor Coil Ohmmeter Test but I need to make up some special jumper wires first so I was unable to do this tonight, maybe tomorrow.

What do you think now, strange how the starboard side of the timer base had a 0 reading when it is the port side that has low voltage? Actually, I believe someone had previously told me that a bad wire on one side will effect the other side on this motor, is that true??? Or should I just replace the pack? If I go with a new CDI pack, should I also change the coils to CDI? I believe there is a hairline crack around the bolt hole of coil #2, maybe someone previously tightened it up too much, could this cause a pack to go bad?

Please guide me here, replace pack or go back and do the ohm test on timer base and power pack test 3-48 or can I simply switch the timer base wires and see if problem chages sides?

Thanks,
Pete

 

[James R]

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Daselbee I will run a parts check for similarities.
If you haven't been around here for some time, as we say, you may not recognize the place.