Motor leaking gear oil profusely

[NAT1VE]

Yes, I understand. But there was no TCW3 rating in 76'. They used normal engine oil 10w30 or straight 30w. As well there are brand new engines sold in other parts of the world where people use straight engine oil in their injection systems because they cannot afford the pre mix oil or they don't bother. Just my $.02

 

[ondarvr]

Race motors are a totally different beast, they have little in common with a typical outboard, nor are they used and mantained in the same way. And at no time did I say 927 is a "bad" oil, only that it's not the correct one for use in a normal outboard. I was around when 927 first came out, and used it when I was racing motorcycles, it's great in that application.

I was also around when 30W motor oil was used, it was dirty, fouled plugs, smoked, left nasty deposits, didn't do a great job of lubricating, etc. These are the reasons oils were developed just for water cooled outboards, the technology split off from motor oil and air cooled 2 stroke oil.

I hate to re-type all this, but here goes.

Water cooled outboards operate at lower temperatures and lower RPM's than most air cooled motors. The oils that work well at high temps and high RPM's leave ash deposits in lower temp, lower RPM motors (typical outboard). These ash deposits can cause premature failure of the motor. When the ash creating ingredients are removed, the oils don't work as well at high RPM's and higher temps, resulting in bearing failure and piston scuffing, although they do still work well at lower RPM's and lower temps. This is when the technologies split away from each other and each was fine tuned for their intended application and stopped being a generic oil.

So there you have the short story on why there are TCW3 oils and a few of the differences. If you wish to use 30W motor oil in your ETEC that's fine with me.

 

[ondarvr]

Back to the OP

Different oils will leave different amounts of visible residue (gunk). The amount of visible goo doesn't means it's dirtier than another oil that leaves less, only that you can see it. The goo is a mix of oil, gas and cooling water, some oils develop less goo, but it's only because they disperse quicker in the water, not because they are cleaner. After the ugly residue sits for a while (it could be days depending on the oil) the water and oil will separate, as they do the water will evaporate and the viscosity of the gunk drops, this allows it to start sagging and running, it will also look more like just a dark oil spot.

This is very common when a motor is used for low RPM trolling, or has just beeen oporating at low RPM's and low temps, this is the gunk people see dripping out of the exhaust. At higher RPM's and higher temps, more of the oil and gas is burned, plus it's at a much higher temperature, so less of it is retained in the exhaust housing. At low temps the goo stays in the exahaust housing and then slowly drains out, sometimes making a big mess a day or two later.

I've switched around using different oils in my kicker to reduce the dripping mess on the shop floor under it. Penzoil synthetic blend is one of the worst offenders, others have left much less of a mess.

 

[Joolz]

50-1 is the correct fuel mixture. Any oil rated tcw 3 for liquid cooled 2 stroke engines is fine. Compression should be above 100 psi. As far as premium gas goes the only benefit from it is if it is ethanol free especially if you have the original fuel lines and pump which are not rated for ethanol.

Thanks for confirming the ratio and compression. Can you please describe the procedure for checking the compression with this two cyl motor? Or if there's a guide somewhere and you have it bookmarked, could you please share? Would also like to know which spark plug it uses.

Canadian gasoline doesn't have the ethanol you guys do, so it looks like I'll stick to regular then. Again, thanks for the clarification on this.

Will be buying marine gear oil and replace the oil. Would still prefer to have a manual for this engine before doing this but it doesn't sound like there's a PDF of it anywhere, so I'll just chance it. I suppose I can always ask you guys for guidance/clarification if I run into issues along the way. Will also get marine grease. Does my motor only have a single nipple for inserting grease? Is the idea to squeeze until the old grease comes out completely?

I hate to re-type all this, but here goes.

Appreciate the retype. It helps understand the why and why nots of using the proper oil. Something I nearly got wrong!

Back to the OP

Different oils will leave different amounts of visible residue (gunk).

Great detailed explanation. After all this is a 2 stroke engine and these don't like running in low rpm, not unlike a mx bike. Back when I was learning to ride I'd foul plugs constantly as I'd never rev up the engine high enough. Not to mention the excessive gunk that would come out of the pipe and drip constantly. So in a way these two motors are very much alike, despite one liking to run hot and the other cool. But clearly neither likes to run in low rpms.

This means that I was mistaken in assuming I can just run the motor in a bucket of water for an hour to test out the gear oil (for possible loss and water infusion) and test the spark plugs for carbon build up. Clearly a test that should be left for the lake after some spirited riding. Something that - much like when I was learning to ride a mx bike - may not happen for a while as it'll be my very first time behind the wheel and I sure plan to take it easy 'till confidence builds up. Showed pics to a local boater yesterday and he wanted to buy my boat on the spot as he said it IS a speed boat. Which may not be the ideal learning vessel for someone with my hours of lake time (that being zero). So yeah, I'll bring some spare plugs just in case

 

[hardwater fisherman]

I live in Canada also and there is ethanol in regular gas.At least in Quebec. And I have seen ethanol in gas in Ontario as well. It is written on the pumps may contain up to 10% ethanol.

 

[flyingscott]

That motor will absolutely run in the low rpms people use these to troll all day long all over the world. The only way you will foul out a lot of plugs is a malfunctioning carb or fuel mixture to rich. Ethanol does not damage the engine only fuel delivery components such as fuel pump and lines all replaceable. You cannot compare a boat motor to a dirtbike not even close the only thing they have in common is being 2 strokes powerbands are completely different . Once you have the motor dialed in plugs will last a long time. To do a compression test take the plugs out screw the gauge in and pull three times repeat for the other cyl. As for changing the lower unit oil is easy lot of videos on youtube for that. Spark plug is champion j4c set at .030 also do not pull the plugs while the engine is hot you could pull the threads out with it.

 

[Joolz]

In Alberta the max ethanol is restricted to 5% and many stations only sell pure gas, like the CO-OP around the corner from me. Only Mohawk sells a high octane (94) that is rich in ethanol. I never use that stuff on anything.

Flyingscott thanks for the instructions on the compression test. Will be doing it shortly. Also picked up a couple of different 2 stroke oil but will be returning one - wanted to first get an idea which is better, seeing how that other poster said the Castrol smokes a lot. Has anyone tried either the Shell or the Canadian Tire brand?
Got some gear oil and grease while there. Hope these are the right ones. But I walked away from the gear oil pump, Can Tire wants over $30 for it. Can I make my own? Suppose all it needs is a squeeze bottle from a dollar store and some tubing?

 

[OptsyEagle]

I picked up 10 litres of Cdn. Tire brand Motomaster/Formula 1 outboard oil rated for TC-W3, for $1.63 each. They called it a clearance sale. I backed up my cart. I would have pushed the entire shelf into my cart but I already had 15 litres of the identical stuff that I had paid closer to $5 a litre for, a few months earlier and with this new purchase I am now good for at least 6 to 8 years. How much oil stock did I want to have.

Anyway, my motors run fine with them. My youngest motor (15Hp) was made in 1976 and my oldest (5.5Hp) in 1961. I figure the worst oil made today, that meets the TC-W3 specification, is probably better then the best oil that was made back then. Anyway, I have always used the no name brands like Walmart's Supertech or some other cheap stuff and never had what I would call an oil related problem.

I should add that obviously these retail stores don't actually make any oil. Some oil company does. With some serious investigative work I figured out that Pennzoil/Quaker State makes Walmart's supertech brand. They make it under another oil company name that they bought out many years earlier. I figure they probably hope that the public will not figure out that it is probably the same as their regular Pennzoil outboard oil that is sold at 2 times the price or more. I would bet, dollars for donuts, that they make the Canadian tire brand as well. They either are going to embrace this store brand business or not and I doubt many other companies could compete well against Pennzoil / Quaker State.

 

[flyingscott]

He is exactly right the tcw 3 rating eliminated the less quality oils. Either of the brands you have are fine. you don't need a special container for the gearlube use the one its in to fill the lower unit. When you change the gearlube in the lower unit do not take out the phillips head bolts it holds the shifting cradle in place.

 

[jrs_diesel]

First, 927 is not what you want to run in an outboard, you need an actual outboard oil. Second, using premium is like throwing money out the window, outboards run best on regular. The ratio right is a good idea though.

I use premium out of sheer laziness. My 2 stroke yard equipment requires 89, so I just fill my main gas can with 91 so I don't have to guess what octane goes in which tank. Better to go to high than too low.

Evinrude XD30 oil works great in our carbed outboards. Heck, they even sell Evinrude oil at Walmart now. Really any two stroke oil that has TC-W3 on the label will work. TC-W3 stands for Two Cycle - Water cooled. Do not use oil meant for use in weed eaters and chainsaws, that oil is meant for air cooled engines and is formulated differently. That Castrol in your picture will work fine.

Every Evinrude and Johnson outboard built since 1964 takes 50:1 on the gas/oil ratio.

For reference about running in a barrel/bucket. Unless your motor is squeaky clean inside and out, you will have some oil sheen in the barrel. One drop makes quite a sheen, and there are several sources from our engines. The grease on the prop shaft, unburned exhaust residue, and the fuel. My four stroke 6 HP Merc makes a slight sheen whenever I test it due to the prop shaft grease.

Hope this helps.

 

[ondarvr]

Yes, I understand. But there was no TCW3 rating in 76'. They used normal engine oil 10w30 or straight 30w. As well there are brand new engines sold in other parts of the world where people use straight engine oil in their injection systems because they cannot afford the pre mix oil or they don't bother. Just my $.02

In 1976 there were many two stroke oils on the market and very few people would have used 30w motor oil, even in the 60's there were several on the market, although some oldtimers still used 30W. In the early 70's there were special racing 2 stroke oils, I was buying them, I'm not sure what year the racing oils appeared on the market.

 

[oldboat1]

from another codger -- That motor is pretty nasty (but seen worse, or at least as bad). If mine, I would pull off the leg and spray it out with a hose and maybe some dishwasher detergent to break up the buildup and clean up the stuff. (leg/exhaust housing up under the powerhead. Use a pressure washer if you want to, but a little gingerly up under the powerhead, or down on the shaft in the l.u. (seals)). Try to get the stuff stuck up all around the interior of the housing.

After it's flushed out some and reassembled, get a conventional OUTBOARD oil of your choice and run the motor deep in a large barrel (big garbage container or similar -- leg sunk deep in the water). Keep the hose going to refresh the water in the barrel. Goosing the motor won't help, and is a bad idea anyway while running in a barrel. I would let it run for an hour or so at idle. Check to be sure it's pumping water and head temp is good. When ready to go for it, run it out on the lake.

You need to get the the best combustion you can -- sounds like you were addressing ignition issues. In addition, the carb has to be squeaky clean and properly adjusted. '70s outboards in decent shape run pretty clean, in my experience.

 

[Joolz]

That's a great idea, and since I do plan to fully restore this boat (including painting the body with marine paint), so doing a complete engine cleanup is in the cards and now would be a good time for this. However not sure what you mean by pulling off the leg. Heh, I don't even know what a "leg" is, although I assume it's the pillar portion that ends at the propeller. What's involved in pulling it? I was also tempted to remove the propeller and check the seal for damage and/or fishing lines that could be wrapped around it. Good idea to do this? Possible to describe the process?

Also like the idea to run it in the barrel with running water so that all that nasty unburned fuel doesn't go right back into the engine.
What kinda temperature for the head is acceptable? I'd assume it would be warm to the touch after running for a while but no idea what normal would be. I assume to check it I'd have the cover off and place my hand somewhere up there that isn't too close to the spinning flywheel?

 

[oldboat1]

hey, Joolz -- on the right end of the motor anyway for the leg..... It'll be good. Really need at least a parts blow up so you know what you're looking at, and don't get in too deep too quick -- and don't fix what ain't broke.

anyway, sounds like you need to replace an impeller anyway, or will as some point, so that cleaning I mention is part of that process. Unbolt the lower part (gearcase/prop) by unscrewing bolts placed from the bottom up, above the flat plate called the ventilation plate (sometimes called a cavitation plate). The gearcase will start to drop, maybe with some help, and you will have to disconnect the shift rod in there (metal rod that will wiggle when you wiggle the gearshift lever). Depending on what you have or what a PO has done, you should have a small link with a couple of hex bolts, visible in the crack you created by partially dropping the gearcase. Back out the top bolt, and you should be able to get the gearcase end out away from the powerhead.

Assuming you get that done (check in along the way and folks will help), the nasties are up in the cavity looking up to the powerhead (exhaust housing, top of the "leg"). That's what I'm suggesting you spray out. Can do the same with the lower part (probably some stuff around the impeller housing down at the base of the shaft on that lower end. While it's apart, it doesn't hurt to find a hose to fit around the copper water tube in the top (engine) half, and squirt water up there with a hand pump or similar -- not too much pressure. Gives you a chance to see where the water comes out too after it goes through the head.

Temperature -- when engine running, should be able to hold your hand (recommend the heel of your hand) on top of the head above the top plug -- not in front, on top. If you can hold your hand there for a few seconds, more or less, temp is probably OK. (130-140 degrees F). 160 degrees is getting too hot. An infrared temp gun is useful (also fun). Good project.

 

[Joolz]

Gotcha, but to confirm: there are 4 bolts, 2 of which are highlighted in the pic, correct? Will leave this till after I take the boat on a test run. For now will just do the basics and get it out there in order to scratch the itch. Once the lower leg is removed will I be able to see the condition of the impeller? Or is there a simpler/quicker way to check on it?
Included too is a pic of the propeller, I just removed the old rusty nail that served as a retaining clip but cannot separate the parts. Sprayed plenty of oil where the blue end cup meets the white propeller and tried to ply apart with a flathead. Didn't budge and figured I asked before I wrecked something. Will be buying proper clips but it would be nice if I could remove the propeller and look inside, if this is a worthy exercise.

Also, just drained the old gear oil. Amazed by its condition, and no signs of metal shavings (the lower bolt lacks a magnet so I just did a visual). Was fearing a milky goop but instead it looks outstanding. And it smells of old oil, so it's not like the PO just added it. Guess this means I have decent seals and one less thing to worry about. Now off to buying a pump and will adding new oil shortly. Cool, finally making some progress.
Thanks again for all the assistance, folks.

 

[oldboat1]

yup. Those bolts. Think you have the right approach. Run it out some -- don't mess with systems before you have a pic, diagram, manual...something. I wouldn't mess with the prop. Lower unit oil looks good, so wouldn't suspect a leak (prop seal, for example). Just running these motors can clear issues. You may find after running a while, it is a lot cleaner.

 

[Joolz]

To do a compression test take the plugs out screw the gauge in and pull three times repeat for the other cyl. Spark plug is champion j4c set at .030

Thanks flyinscott, just did the compression test and stoked that it's pretty decent. Motor is definitely a winner and it now looks a lot better since I cleaned up the gunk from it. Also applied marine grease to the 2 nipples. There are only two, correct?
Didn't confirm the gap in the plugs but looks about right and happy with the way they look. Certainly not running rich or too lean, it all seems great. Next on the agenda: get some gas, fill up that barrel with water and do a test run.

 

[oldboat1]

dunno Joolz -- little more exacting, I think. .030 on J4Cs is what's needed. Some art to mixture setting, but also a little exacting -- and important (good stickies on that). This thing about grease -- aware that the grease is important for steering, tilting, but not operation, right? (also adjustments for those things)

seems like that motor has seen an awful lot of lubrication....

[edit: compression good, if both cylinders as shown, or close]