mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

[Rscardina]

ok.some history: E140TXCDC Evinrude 1986 V4

went on the water and she died..could not restart so i got towed in. after troubleshooting a bit it appeared VRO had crapped out, so i oerderd and replaced with rebuild kit. At the same time I decided to re-do carbs since I wasnt sure how long ago they were done. Did that. Assumed all was well, tried to start her up and whammo..here comes the problems..

No spark on one bank?..check sparkplugs and all looked good (champion specs for motor), ..carb bowl are full..while at it I did a compression test 125 all 4. check wiring, connections etc.all good.

go back to test spark again..and she has spark again..go through, ohm each coil..they all seem ok but are old..so i replaced them.

check again and have no spark on all cyliders. unplugged ahrness and bam all spark is back..key switch was shorting kill..replaced that.

Now i get better spark but I am droping cylinders..now running on 2. I assume powerpack since it too was very old, so I said what the heck ill change it as well..matter of fact while I am it ill replace spark wire as well..

So to recap of what i have done or replaced..:
Spark wires, plugs, coils, carb kits, key switch, rebuilt vro, set WOT advance using Joe revves method

Troubleshooting:
I can get her to start but she is definietly on 2 cylinders..if I goose the throttle she picks up the other 2..as she drops idle she loses 2 again..
If I spray mix in the carb she picks up again...(this happens with carbs that feed 2-4) 1-3 work great. I swapped carbs and the problem followed, so i assumed carb issue. i opened her up again and rechecked ..all was good.

Interestingly enough I have #16 slow idle jets on two carbs and #20 on the others. all 4 have #28 for intermediates....and all high speeds are identical..

I'm stumped..I have no clue where to look ...I am thinking I drop her off to the shop come monday unless someone here has any ides for me..

so frustrating spending time on dry land while the boats sits crying for help..

Thanks for the help!

 

[Rscardina]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

its still a mystery..

 

[Rscardina]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

......

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

Either the idle cover plate gaskets are leaking or not installed or the carb base seal o-rings is not sealing

 

[Rscardina]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

The carb setup on my engine is pretty basic compared to other styles.. if you mean the spaghetti seal that goes bewteen the throttle body and carb body then those are good..can I say they are 100% tight?.no.. i havent tried spraying around the rim to see if that does anything. Ill check that tomorrow.

as mentioned in the previous post I checked timing and at idle she sat at TDC..which I knew wasn't right. So I did the joe reeves WOT timing with a 4 dgree retard or 14 for my engine BTDC.. once complete the idle went to 4 degrees ATDC..

After all that the starboard side carbs are still running lean..i opened both and rechecked for debris etc..I blew gas through all orifices and on the throttle body..its frustrating. I can squirt pre-mix in each carb and she picks up..if i do the same on the port bank she stalls..

it appears something is up with both starboard carbs,,

scratching my head..

 

[jonesg]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

Either the idle cover plate gaskets are leaking or not installed or the carb base seal o-rings is not sealing

I was over at Rich's house saturday morning to give him a hand and can describe it fom my perspective. New coils, powerpack, leads and plugs, rebuilt pump and carbs with kits etc. Compression good, should run.!

After letting it warm up it seemed rough, the port cyl's were quite cool to the touch, starboard were 160degs hot.

Spark was ok so we tried shooting pre-mix directly into the carbs, its a cross flow so we sprayed the 2 starboard carbs and the 2 port cyl's immediately responded by firing , continued spraying for a minute and they came up near temp.

Spraying into the other carbs caused them to bog down from being too rich.

Could be reeds? , so we swapped the 2 top carbs over side to side,
But the problem followed the carb. So its not reeds.

So we opened the bad carb we had swapped over to the other side, clean , sprayed fuel through it, no clogs or leaks apparent.
What could it be?

 

[Rscardina]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

I'm stimped..called boat guy and he said I did everything correct in trying to isolate the issue...

at this point, I think the motor has beat me..time to take her to the shop and let them do what they do..

Ill keep you all posted...thanks for the help

 

[daselbee]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

When you say swapping carbs side to side...is this just the black plastic carb body, or are you swapping the throttle plate also?

On the throttle plate, on the starboard side, on your carbs, there should be a circular core plug. That plug covers up the area where they originally machined the idle passages that deliver fuel to the venturi right at the location of each throttle plate. One micro sized hole is behind the plate, the other holes are just in front of the plate. If that passageway on each carb is blocked, fouled, you will not get a good idle. But, the problem is, the core plug. On the newer motors, the same area is covered by a plate, gasket, and screws. You can take that off to clean/service. I am leery of taking out that core plug.

I would take the throttle plates off, soak in acetone or laquer thinner. Remove any nylon bushings if they exist. Metal only in the acetone.
Then, inspect very carefully the VERY VERY tiny holes in the throttle bore next to the plate. Very tiny. Almost like a hair. You could fish a few strands of wire in there, wiggle it around, soak some more...etc. Then blow air thru there from the front face of the throttle body. You will see the hole, maybe two holes, that leads back to that core plug area.

Then...regarding the black carb itself. When you say you cleaned it, did you absolutely clean the inside of the small metal tube that sticks down into the float bowl from the top piece? That tube is the source of all gasoline that makes it thru the idle circuit. It too has a very small diameter. The top of that tube is up in the side idle circuit chamber, that is covered with a plate and gaskets. Some have 2 screws, some 4, and others 5...depends on your motor. I think yours will have 2 screws. Gotta get that clean also.

If you have a sticking, broken, leaking reed, there will be gas spewing out the front of the carb on the cyl that the reed is broken. It will be very obvious.
Like..."What the heck is this thing spitting gas out the front for!!!!!" That obvious.

Also...just a point of clarification....he has a looper, not a crossflow. The fact that the carbs are on opposite sides from the cylinders they feed is not the definition of a "crossflow". Crossflow comes from the way the fuel enters the cylinder at the ports, and it's path across the cylinder, deflection by the large hump on top of the piston, and eventually scavenged out the exhaust port. Crossflows have a huge hump on the piston top, and a bypass cover/plate that you can remove on the side of the block for inspection.

Loopers have flat pistons, or maybe just a very slight hump, and no bypass covers on the side of the block.

Make sure you have the right idle and intermediate jets, and that they are installed in the correct location!!!!!! (Not swapped around)

 

[daselbee]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

Interestingly enough I have #16 slow idle jets on two carbs and #20 on the others. all 4 have #28 for intermediates....and all high speeds are identical..

The parts list clearly shows the different intermediate air orifices required.
Look your engine up...look in the carb section...
The 16s and 20s are correct. The 28 is the idle air bleed, not the intermediate. Study the parts pages, the descriptions, etc. and get a handle on exactly what you are looking at and referring to....

Additionally, if you mis-assembled and put the 28s where the 16s /20s should go, you will have a very lean idle mixture, may explain your results when you spray pre-mix in.

 

[Rscardina]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

daselbee.. I know what you are speaking of. What I did was swap the black plastic carb bodies..I never took the throttle bodies off. The welch plug you speak of are on the right sides of each throttle body. I took carb spary with a straw and squirted through that..what i got was two streams on the back side of the buttefly..very small holes indeed.. spraying the other hole I got spray through the back of the throttle body closer to the reeds..

I cleaned and inspected every inch of the carb bodies..eveything is clean whih is why i am getting so frustrated... has i missesd a step or what have you I think i would have found it by now having taken these off 3 times already..

I was very careful in not mixing parts..the 16's are the top orifce on the starboard side, below those are 20's.. and high speeds are in the bowls. I took one carb off at a time to perform the work so there is no chance i mixed anything.

yes it is a looper I guess..but the crossflow term was just my explaiing that the opposite carbs fed the opposite cylinders..

The mystery to me is why if I have full bowls am i having any issues with all passages clear??.. and thats its just that side?.. I tried thinking what would be common but there is nothing common..except throttle plate..but even that has its own seperate fuel passages for top and bottom..

 

[daselbee]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

I was very careful in not mixing parts..the 16's are the top orifce on the starboard side, below those are 20's.. and high speeds are in the bowls. I took one carb off at a time to perform the work so there is no chance i mixed anything.

Something's wrong with the above statement.

On the starboard cylinder's carbs (which are located on the port side),
you should have in the lower orifice location a #28 idle air bleed, item #13 on the parts page. In the location above that, you should have a #16 intermediate orifice item #19 on the parts page. The main jet in the bowl is a #61D. That is what the books say for both the carbs for #1 and #3 cylinders.

For the port cylinders, #2 and #4, (carbs on the starboard side), you should have the same #28 idle air bleed in the lower hole, BUT you should have a #20 intermediate in the upper location. Same #61D for the high speed jet.

Look your motor up on shop.evinrude.com, go to the carb pages, zoom in...

 

[Rscardina]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

Something's wrong with the above statement.

On the starboard cylinder's carbs (which are located on the port side),
you should have in the lower orifice location a #28 idle air bleed, item #13 on the parts page. In the location above that, you should have a #16 intermediate orifice item #19 on the parts page. The main jet in the bowl is a #61D. That is what the books say for both the carbs for #1 and #3 cylinders.

For the port cylinders, #2 and #4, (carbs on the starboard side), you should have the same #28 idle air bleed in the lower hole, BUT you should have a #20 intermediate in the upper location. Same #61D for the high speed jet.

Look your motor up on shop.evinrude.com, go to the carb pages, zoom in...

sorry for the typo.. just speaking carbs here.. starboard carbs have 16, and 28.... port carbs have 20 and 28.. sorry about the confusion.

that is where i look up all my stuff...as well as owning a shop manual for my engine..

the carbs that feed 1 and 3 are 20's and 28, the carbs that feed 2 and 4 are 16's and 28...

 

[Rscardina]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

PS....when they speak about port or starboard...they do mean the carb location and not the cylinder it fires?....

looking at the carbs:

-----------1
--2---------
-----------3
--4---------

From inside the boat.....2 and 4 is starboard..(or on my left facing the back of the boat) ..1 and 3 are port..(or on my right facing the back of the boat)

 

[daselbee]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

Ok that was a typo....good that is cleared up.
It sounds as if you have the jets in the right locations.

Now, regarding starboard / port....in all references to parts that have a starboard/port difference...specifically pistons on the loopers....they always are referring to the cylinder side itself.

I would take that and apply it to the carbs....even though carbs for #1 and #3 are physically located on the port side, they are the carbs for the starboard cylinders...

That is the way I would interpret it.

I wish Fazt or Ezeke would put their expertise in on this question.

 

[Rscardina]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

funny you say that.. I pm'ed Ezeke a few days ago to see if he would read and provide input.. no clue if he has looked at it yet..

So I remain stumped..

 

[bailey]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

I question your port and starboard positions. I think that if you are standing in your boat and looking "BACK" at the motor the leftside of the motor as you see it is the port side of the motor, and the rightside of your motor (where your fuel line hooks up to the motor) would be the starboard side of the motor. If your standing directly behind the motor (looking ahead to your steering wheel) the port side is the leftside (where your fuel line hooksup to the motor) and the starboard side is the rightside (where your throttle and gear shift cables enter your engine cowl)
Bailey

 

[Rscardina]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

I question your port and starboard positions. I think that if you are standing in your boat and looking "BACK" at the motor the leftside of the motor as you see it is the port side of the motor, and the rightside of your motor (where your fuel line hooks up to the motor) would be the starboard side of the motor. If your standing directly behind the motor (looking ahead to your steering wheel) the port side is the leftside (where your fuel line hooksup to the motor) and the starboard side is the rightside (where your throttle and gear shift cables enter your engine cowl)
Bailey

ok..i have a center console.. sitting facing forward starboard is my right and port is my left...

turned around facing the motor....starboard is my leaft and port is my right...

starboard and port do not change...so when you get a part that calls for port side.. does it refer to the port side or does it refer to the port side cyclinder??

in my case when it says port orifice (carbs)..then I assume it to mean the right side of the engine when I am facing it (looking back toward the transom)

 

[bailey]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

I could be wrong and I"ll apoligize first, but most problems that occur here the owner seems to be standing behind his motor looking towards the "BOW" when explaining his problems and left side of his motor as you guessed it is the port side.
Where are the experts when you really need them, I sympathize with you!
Bailey

 

[jonesg]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

I'm an expert on port, its got 4 letters like LEFT when standing behind the boat.
And Port side is always port no matter where I stand.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: mystery problem..140 v4..e140txcdc

If I spray mix in the carb she picks up again...(this happens with carbs that feed 2-4) 1-3 work great. I swapped carbs and the problem followed, so i assumed carb issue. i opened her up again and rechecked ..all was good.

If problem followed the carbs it not a throttle plate issue,its in the carbs. It one of the following:
1) supply hose/needle/seat/float problem and carb not getting fuel( #1 pick)
2) side cover gasket on carb leaking
3) emulsion tubes for idle and intermediate jets stopped up
4) emulsion tubes not getting fuel from center of carb bowl due to debris