Need advice on warranty info

[otb472]

I need some advice on my situation:

I had a 4.3 Merc rebuilt installed in an open bow boat last year. I took the boat in July and had returned at the end of October. It was after season when i took possesion and drained the engine immediately and stored for the winter.

It sat over the winter and first trip on the water in April, engine shuts down. I check the oil, I've got the dreaded chocolate milk. I take back to the mechanic who performed the work and it has a cracked block. I send him in writing that I want him to submit a warranty claim (1 year on rebuilt mercs). He finally calls me back and says that he spoke with merc and it was improper winterization, no warranty.

My catch 22 is the "improper winterization" of course is one of the only conditions not covered under warranty and the mechanic has no reason to say otherwise because it gets him out of dealing with it.

I believe that it was a problem since taking possession and not improper winterization. I have owned this exact engine before for several seasons, drained the engine myself and never had any issues.

Questions are:
1. What are the chances of getting a rebuilt that already has damage?
2. Anyone ever had a cracked block after draining an engine? Mechanic says that its cracked all down one side. He also told me that he has had cracked blocks after draining before?
3. Anyone ever received a rebuilt that was damaged from day one? I know they don't always know the history of the blocks they are working from and I'm guessing only visually inspected.
4. Any advice on approaching the situation? I spoke to Mercury and they tell me the warranty has to come from the Mechanic. The mechanic says improper winterization without really knowing the prior history of the engine = warranty useless? This is the only reason i had rebuilt was because of warranty.

Any advice on this matter will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

2. Anyone ever had a cracked block after draining an engine? Mechanic says that its cracked all down one side. He also told me that he has had cracked blocks after draining before?

Ayuh,... Plain,+ Simple,... True as the Bible,....

Properly drained blocks do Not crack.... Blocks also will not spontaneitly Crack...

I've seen a quite a few blocks Cracked when Thought drained,...
We see folks in your Boat quite regularly from April to about 4th July....

Just opening the petcocks just ain't enough,...
You've gotta pick,+ prod the holes out to drain ALL the water....

Sorry man,... Pay at window 2......

 

[JustJason]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

1. What are the chances of getting a rebuilt that already has damage?

1. Slim to none for a reputable shop.

2. Anyone ever had a cracked block after draining an engine? Mechanic says that its cracked all down one side. He also told me that he has had cracked blocks after draining before?

2. Nope. But agreeing with Bondo... I've seen many blocks crack because people THOUGHT they got the water out, or used 1 of those dreaded antifreeze flushers.

3. Anyone ever received a rebuilt that was damaged from day one? I know they don't always know the history of the blocks they are working from and I'm guessing only visually inspected.

I've seen rebuilds that weren't put together right. But again going along with #1, it all depends on the shop.

4. Any advice on approaching the situation? I spoke to Mercury and they tell me the warranty has to come from the Mechanic. The mechanic says improper winterization without really knowing the prior history of the engine = warranty useless? This is the only reason i had rebuilt was because of warranty.

This doesn't make any sense at all. Is it a Mercruiser FACTORY rebuilt block, or not? If it's a factory rebuilt block then Merc warrantys the block and the labor. What is this about prior history also???? I thought you said you bought a rebuilt engine from mercury? So did you... or did a shop pull a motor out of a junkyard?

My catch 22 is the "improper winterization" of course is one of the only conditions not covered under warranty and the mechanic has no reason to say otherwise because it gets him out of dealing with it.

What does that mean the mechanic has no reason to say otherwise????
This is how it works.... Mech looks at the motor. Mech knows what's wrong, and why. Just for turds and giggles he calls mercruiser service dept anyways... Call goes something like this

* Hi thanks for calling mercruiser service, how can I help you?
* Yeah this is Joe the mechanic from shop ###
* Hi Joe what can we do for you today?
* I'm submitting a warranty claim for xyz engine.
* Okay Joe, is there water in the oil?
* (joe) yes there is
* Okay Joe, First we need you to look down the side of the block for an exterior crack.
* (joe again) yes, yes I see a crack.
* Joe we are sorry to inform you that the only possible way that crack can happen is due to improper winterization.
* (Joe). I know. I was just calling because being the GOOD mechanic that I am I promised the customer I would call you anyways. Thanks and have a great day.
* Thanks for calling mercruiser service, you have a great day to Joe.

It was after season when i took possesion and drained the engine immediately and stored for the winter.

It sat over the winter and first trip on the water in April, engine shuts down. I check the oil, I've got the dreaded chocolate milk.

Well... the oil should have been changed when the motor was layed up for the winter. If it had water in it before there was 1 freezing night then you may have a leg to stand on.

Either way... theres not much you can do. Make your next boat an outboard if your intent on doing your own winterizations.

 

[otb472]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

JustJason, a couple of clarifications

This doesn't make any sense at all. Is it a Mercruiser FACTORY rebuilt block, or not? If it's a factory rebuilt block then Merc warrantys the block and the labor. What is this about prior history also???? I thought you said you bought a rebuilt engine from mercury? So did you... or did a shop pull a motor out of a junkyard?

It is a mercruiser longblock assembly. From my understanding the mechanic takes the assembly and puts on belts, starter, etc. My point on the prior history was that my guess is that they (Mercruiser) doesn't rebuilt blocks that are in perfect condition all of the time. By history I mean who's to say that the block wasn't taken out of an old boat that had some freeze damage and all it took was one run under stress before the problem showed itself. Where do they get the blocks from to rebuild? Also, Is there any way to tell a block has a problem without running it under real conditions? I did not mention earlier that I ran the engine for about 20 min. on the hose prior to putting it in the water. I checked the oil, everything was ok. The problem did not show itself until I ran the boat on the water, so I know a simple running on the hose would not have shown the problem.

What does that mean the mechanic has no reason to say otherwise????
This is how it works.... Mech looks at the motor. Mech knows what's wrong, and why. Just for turds and giggles he calls mercruiser service dept anyways... Call goes something like this

My real point is not that there is not freeze damage, but rather when it occured. I understand how freeze damage can occur but I'm questioning the process of using a rebuilt block out of another boat. Where do they get the blocks from? Mercruiser's own web site for rebuilts describes a cleaning and visual inspection before the engine is rebuilt, no pressure tests, no field tests, etc. My guess again is that any such issue will not show itself until it is put under stress in the water. Is this correct?

 

[JustJason]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

By history I mean who's to say that the block wasn't taken out of an old boat that had some freeze damage and all it took was one run under stress before the problem showed itself.

I believe 90% of mercurys cores come from both Merc warrantys and GM warranty engines. Merc only uses quality cores, they are not in the business of shipping junk.

What i don't get is this. You said you used the boat from july through oct then you say you drained it??? Is that correct or did i miss somethng?

Couple more Q's for ya.
1. Is the block externally cracked and leaking water in the bilge? You would certainly see this on a garden hose.... If it is you can stop here....

If its not...
2. has the intake manifold been pulled yet to check for a crack in the lifter valley? If your getting water in the oil because of freeze damage this is where it would be. Also... any company that rebuilds cores would obviously see a crack there... it's plain as day and common on all V engines.

3. If theres no external cracks, and no internal cracks, pressure testing the cooling system should still be done but you may just be fighting a leaking intake manfold gasket.

Answer the Q's please and i'll be happy to help and keep my snide remarks to myself.

 

[otb472]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

I believe 90% of mercurys cores come from both Merc warrantys and GM warranty engines. Merc only uses quality cores, they are not in the business of shipping junk.

I am just trying to understand how/where the blocks come from that they rebuilt from. Also want to see if there is any possibility of hairline fractures or structural damage that can get by a visual inspection that is part of their process.

What i don't get is this. You said you used the boat from july through oct then you say you drained it??? Is that correct or did i miss somethng?

Sorry, after re-reading, I wasn't clear. The boat had cracked block before taking it in. I took in to get a reman engine with warranty. I took it in to the mechanic in July and got it back in October. I did not receive the boat back from the mechanic until end of October, then I drained immidiately since it was after season. I did not run until April, hose first to confirm it was running, then lake. Engine ran fine for 20 min on the hose, then started leaking once on the lake under higher loads. The first trip on the lake since the rebuilt engine was installed was the time the problem occured.

1. Is the block externally cracked and leaking water in the bilge? You would certainly see this on a garden hose.... If it is you can stop here....

Yes, it is externally cracked and seeping into bilge. It did not do this when i ran on the hose, but did on the water.

2. has the intake manifold been pulled yet to check for a crack in the lifter valley? If your getting water in the oil because of freeze damage this is where it would be. Also... any company that rebuilds cores would obviously see a crack there... it's plain as day and common on all V engines.

3. If theres no external cracks, and no internal cracks, pressure testing the cooling system should still be done but you may just be fighting a leaking intake manfold gasket.

Defininely external crack. As mentioned, ran fine for 20 min on hose. Took to lake and under first run, it started coming out of crack.

 

[Bt Doctur]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

I would think that if you drained and winterized it yourself ,then the problem would be yours.I`d think that the person installing this new/rebuilt engine would still have the test sheets when it was first fired up. No shop should let an engine go out the door without it.Did the shop test run it on water or muffs?

 

[otb472]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

Muffs in my presense. I'm not aware of any water test. I can check on the test sheets though. Is it typical to do them on a new or rebuilt engine?

 

[Bt Doctur]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

So, the motor was test run with you present and oil,temp,timing,operation,etc. went ok. Then YOU took it home and winterized it .Exactly HOW? All the blocks reported this year were from owner induced failure (OIF).So ,the question is EXACTLY HOW DID YOU WINTERIZE IT. Blocks just don`t crack by magic. something was missed or left out in the procedure used.

 

[otb472]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

I winterized it exactly per the procedures listed in the manual given with the engine by the manufacturer.

I understand that blocks don't just crack, but i also ran it for 20 min. on the hose prior to on the water test, and everything did fine, just as the test on the hose that i witnessed. The crack was not detected until after testing on the water. That's part of what I'm saying, the crack could have been there on the initial test on the hose and I wouldn't have known it.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

Sorry to say it man, but this one is one you. If a mechanic "winterized" it or drained it, then it would certainly be on him. But because you chose to, this one is on you.

At this point it doesn't matter if the rebuilt motor was checked on muffs, on the water, or on a dynamomater....

You took delivery and didn't drive it yourself until the next season... so that's shame on you number 1.
You chose to drain it yourself, and you missed something, that's shame on you number 2.
Checking the engine oil every time before you fire up the engine is pretty much mandatory and spelled out in both the factory service manuals and the owners manual. If you never read your owners manual (or even bothered to obtain 1 to read)... Then that my friend is shame on you number 3.

If you checked the oil before you "winterized" it last season, you would have seen water in the oil if there was a pre-existing condition.

There are to many things that could of happened between last october and today that it turns into nothing more than finger pointing. And finger pointing almost never goes the customers way, especially when trying to sort out what the mechanic did and what you did as far as work goes.

At this point you might as well stop trying to figure out what you missed... because you missed something. It stinks... but you live and learn.

I was telling Bondo earlier that of all the new customers I had last year I had 9 with i/o's that chose to self winterize instead of paying me to do it. I've heard from 4 of those 9 and they all have cracked blocks.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

I understand that blocks don't just crack, but i also ran it for 20 min. on the hose prior to on the water test, and everything did fine, just as the test on the hose that i witnessed. The crack was not detected until after testing on the water.

Thats just because on the hose the engine only has a couple of psi of water pressure inside of it. On the water it has 30+ psi.
The crack on the side of the block is just the water jacket. That wouldn't allow water in the oil. Its also cracked on the inside, and i'm 99% positive that its in the lifter valley.
A professional engine rebuilder, even if they didn't magnaflux the block, even if they didn't pressure test the cooling system, would not have missed 2 cracks. It's SOP when rebuilding an engine to fill it with oil, run it, and check the oil again. If it was cracked when it left the factory then there would have been water in the oil from day 1.

 

[captkevin]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

Might be time to give your insurance carrier a call & see if they will cover a claim on a improperly winterized engine.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

Might be time to give your insurance carrier a call & see if they will cover a claim on a improperly winterized engine.

Ayuh,... I can't feature that's gonna float,...
'ell if it Did,....
Everybody with a tired motor would just Not bother draining it in the Fall,..
Knowing they could Screw the Insurance Co. for a New Motor in the Spring....

There was a Poster earlier this year than claimed He was paying the "Stupid Tax" for Not Properly Winterizing His motor....
In other words,... His own Stupidity....

 

[45Auto]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

Questions are:
1. What are the chances of getting a rebuilt that already has damage?

From my experience, maybe 1 in 1000 (engine dropped during shipping, etc)

2. Anyone ever had a cracked block after draining an engine?

Not if it's drained PROPERLY. Air doesn't freeze (at least not on Earth).

Mechanic says that its cracked all down one side. He also told me that he has had cracked blocks after draining before?

Not if it's drained PROPERLY. Air doesn't freeze (at least not on Earth).

3. Anyone ever received a rebuilt that was damaged from day one?

Yep, it was from shipping damage.

4. Any advice on approaching the situation?

Suck it up and get on with your life. Reality bites. Essentially you were buying a new boat, should have sea-trialed it when you picked it up. Now it's your word against everyone else's that something was wrong when you paid for it. Maybe it was, but we'll never know. If anyone would warranty a motor that the customer claimed had been winterized "correctly" but still cracked, they would be out of business at the end of their first year.

 

[QC]

Re: Need advice on warranty info

Insurance pays when you destroy a drive on a rock, so why not freeze damage? Both are operator error . . . There is this little issue that it wasn't on the water, but I think I'd still check with them.