Need Help, Engine Won't Start

Bry21317

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 9, 2002
Messages
552
I have a 1988 Force 125HP engine, it is the C model. When I turn the Key it will not kick the Starter. I have 2 batteries hooked up, and they are both fully charged. I have traced all of the Power wires and everything is working. I had diagnosed it last night with the Manual to be the Starter Solenoid, so I replaced that tonight and the same thing is happening. <br /><br />On the Starter Solenoid I have the 4 gauge Power wire coming from the Battery. On the opposite side of this, I have the 4 guage wire going to the starter itself. I then have 2 other wires coming into the solenoid. These wires are labeled I which is the Ground as it states in the manual, which is grounded to the engine block at the same location as the ground wire from the batteries. The other wire coming into the solenoid is labeled S, which comes from the Switch, when turned to the start Position. This wire then runs to the Interlock Neutral Safety switch, which has 12 volts at it, 13 actually, by volt meter. I then followed the wire from the neutral switch over to the solenoid and I also have 13 volts at this, when the Key is turned to the start position. I have a good ground going to the solenoid and a solid 13 volts coming directly into it from the battery, but it still wont give me 12 or 13 volts on the terminal going to the starter when the switch is turned to the start position. <br /><br />Also, if I run a jumper wire from the 12 volts from the battery directly to the starter, the starter will spin, so the starter is working, it just isn't getting power from the solenoid.<br /><br />I am at a loss other than that they gave me a bad solenoid, that I replaced a bad one with. Does anyone have any input on what I can try now?<br /><br />I have a feeling this is what it is, due to the fact that everything else has the correct amount of power.<br /><br />I am looking forward to getting in the lake this weekend, and hope you guys can help. <br /><br />Thanks,<br />Bryan Cox
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Need Help, Engine Won't Start

Hi, Bry.<br /><br />Does the solenoid click when you engage the starter switch?<br /><br />Does the voltage on the input side (from battery) of the solenoid stay at 12-13v when you turn the key, or does it drop to near zero?<br /><br />In a very high current circuit like a starter circuit it only takes a few ohms of resistance at some connection that LOOKS good to "drop" all of the available voltage. This is one of the most common troubles on outboards.<br /><br />"Everything is working"? Not. Your starter isn't working.<br /><br />Take your voltmeter and measure from one side to the other of every connection of the high-current circuit with the starter switch on. That includes the connections on the solenoid. Any that read over about .5v are bad. I suspect that you will find one reading near 12v. That is the one that is causing your problem.<br /><br />The most common bad connection is where the battery ground cable connects to the engine block.<br /><br />Good luck. :)
 

Bry21317

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 9, 2002
Messages
552
Re: Need Help, Engine Won't Start

Jb,<br />Thanks for the tips. I checked all the ground wires on the batteries and at the block. It seems that this is part of my problem at least, but I disconnected all the grounds, 1 by 1 and found that I have a short somewhere that is delivering 12 volts through the ground wire. I have traced it up to the Dashboard somewhere, but will have to dig into it more and poke every wire that I can find to figure out what is shorting out.<br /><br />The odd thing is that when the Key is turned to the off position, I am getting a weak voltage (not sure the exact amount, I was using a test light this morning) coming through the ground wire leaving the dash. This ground wire is not connected to the battery at all, I disconnected it. When I turn the Key to the on Position it gets a stronger voltage going through it.<br /><br />It was working about 2 months ago, I have not touched anything in the front, just in the back. I had been doing a bunch of Fiberglass repair to the floor under the rear seats. I have checked all the wires in the rear of the boat to make sure none of them got cut or anything in my remodeling job. They all seemed fine, so is it possible that the switch could have a short in it?<br /><br />Thanks for all the help guys. I am at work now, but this is making me rack my brain and seeing and thinking of how all the wires go through that boat in my head, lol.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Bryan Cox
 

Xcusme

Commander
Joined
Apr 21, 2003
Messages
2,888
Re: Need Help, Engine Won't Start

Bryan,<br />I would expect the ground wire to be at some voltage above ground potential if you disconnected it from the battery ground. Remember, the entire circuit is at 12VDC (with the key ON) until the ground wire is grounded to the negative terminal of the battery. <br /><br />Example:<br /><br />Start with a wire coming from the +12VDC battery terminal. This goes to a normally open switch, from this switch it goes to a load, say a light bulb, from the light bulb, it goes back to ground. When the normally open switch is closed, the voltage flows to the light bulb (the load) and completes the circuit to ground, the light bulb lights.<br /><br />If you un-ground the ground wire, the voltage floats back up to 12VDC, this is normal. The ground wire (back to the load, the light bulb) will read zero volts ONLY when it's connected to -12VDC (battery negative). To test your connections , try this.<br /><br />RE-connect the ground wire.<br />Turn switch to ON position.<br />Set test meter to read DC voltage.<br />Put black test meter lead on negative post of battery.<br />On ground wire, skin back insulation a small amount about 6" from ground wire terminal.<br />Put red test meter lead on this bare section of exposed wire.<br /><br />If you read voltage, then your ground terminal lug is faulty, replace the ground wire terminal lug.<br /><br />If you read zero volts, then the ground lug is good.<br /><br />As for the solenoid. JB asked if you hear a 'click' from the solenoid when you turn the key to the start position. If you don't hear a click, then one or more of a couple things are happening. <br /><br />1. Defective solenoid<br />2. Bad ground wire on solenoid<br />3. No voltage from start switch<br /><br />First, put red test meter lead to Battery side of solenoid, black side of test meter lead to negative post on battery, you should read 12VDC. If you don't read 12VDC, check connections at +Battery and battery side of solenoid for bad connections, repair as necessary.<br /><br />Next , test solenoid ground terminal.<br />Put red test meter lead on +Battery post<br />Put black test meter lead on ground post of solenoid<br />You should read 12VDC, if not, check solenoid ground wire, repair as necessary.<br /><br />Next check solenoid lead to ignition switch.<br />Put black test meter lead on - Battery post<br />Put red test meter lead to Ign. switch terminal on solenoid.<br />Turn Ign. switch to start position.<br />You should read 12VDC on meter ( and head the solenoid 'click')<br />If you don't read 12VDC on meter , trace wire back to Ign. switch for open wire OR bad ign. switch.<br /><br />If the above connections are good , you should hear a click from the solenoid when you turn the ign. switch to the start position.<br /><br />If you do hear the click but have no starter, a couple more tests are in order.<br />The next test is in 2 parts. The first , tests the solenoid contacts, the 2nd tests the starter itself.<br /><br />Disconnect the wire from the solenoid going to the starter.<br />Put red test meter lead on solenoid starter post.<br />Put the black test meter lead on -Battery post.<br />Turn ign. switch to start position.<br />You should hear the solenoid 'click' and read 12VDC on your meter.<br />This confirms that the solenoid is closing and is passing voltage to the starter terminal. If you read zero volts, replace solenoid.<br /><br />Next , lets test the starter circuit itself.<br /><br />Re-connect starter wire to solenoid.<br />Put red test meter lead to starter side of solenoid.<br />Put black test meter lead to -Battery post<br />Turn ign switch to start position.<br />You should read positive voltage going to starter and starter should spin. <br />If starter does not spin, you can have one or more of the following problems:<br /><br />A bad ground connection for the starter.<br />The starter windings can be open circuit. <br />Open wire from solenoid TO the starter.<br /><br />The worse case scenario is that the starter is dead shorted to ground. If this is the case, when you turn the ign. key, the solenoid is, in effect, connecting your battery directly to ground, and that's not good. Under this condition,the full potiential (amperage)of the battery will go across the solenoid contacts, possibly burning them open, or draining the battery in very short order. The solenoid would get very hot, very fast!
 

Bry21317

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 9, 2002
Messages
552
Re: Need Help, Engine Won't Start

To answer you and Jb first off, I can never get the Starter Solenoid, old or new to click at all.<br /><br />To answer your questions XCusme:<br /><br />1) Solenoid was purchased yesterday, could be bad from the shop. I won't rule this out yet.<br /><br />2) Ground wire is tight and solenoid is grounded good.<br /><br />3) I have a solid 13 volts coming to the solenoid on the S terminal from the Switch, when it is in the Start position.<br /><br />
First, put red test meter lead to Battery side of solenoid, black side of test meter lead to negative post on battery, you should read 12VDC. If you don't read 12VDC, check connections at +Battery and battery side of solenoid for bad connections, repair as necessary.
Yes, Over 12 volts showing. About 12.5 - 13.<br /><br />
Next , test solenoid ground terminal.<br />Put red test meter lead on +Battery post<br />Put black test meter lead on ground post of solenoid<br />You should read 12VDC, if not, check solenoid ground wire, repair as necessary.
Yes, Over 12 volts showing. About 12.5 - 13.<br /><br />
Next check solenoid lead to ignition switch. Put black test meter lead on - Battery post, Put red test meter lead to Ign. switch terminal on solenoid.<br />Turn Ign. switch to start position.<br />You should read 12VDC on meter ( and head the solenoid 'click')<br />If you don't read 12VDC on meter , trace wire back to Ign. switch for open wire OR bad ign. switch.
On this test, I have the 12.5- 13 volts coming into the Solenoid from the Switch when in the S position, but it does not click. <br /><br />This happens on the old and the new solenoids. I took the old relay, and hooked it up to my car battery with a jumper wire to try to make it click. What I did is I ran a wire to the Battery in post on the solenoid from my + on the car. I then jumped this + wire over to the S wire also on the solenoid. I then touched the Ground wire from the car battery to the I terminal on the Solenoid and it didn't click at all. <br /><br />I have not tried this test yet on the new solenoid, but amd wondering if my luck is they gave me a bad one.<br /> <br />
Disconnect the wire from the solenoid going to the starter.<br />Put red test meter lead on solenoid starter post.<br />Put the black test meter lead on -Battery post.<br />Turn ign. switch to start position.<br />You should hear the solenoid 'click' and read 12VDC on your meter.<br />This confirms that the solenoid is closing and is passing voltage to the starter terminal. If you read zero volts, replace solenoid.
Zero Volts are read here and no clicking. Will take the Solenoid back, and replace it.<br /><br />
The worse case scenario is that the starter is dead shorted to ground. If this is the case, when you turn the ign. key, the solenoid is, in effect, connecting your battery directly to ground, and that's not good. Under this condition,the full potiential (amperage)of the battery will go across the solenoid contacts, possibly burning them open, or draining the battery in very short order. The solenoid would get very hot, very fast!
The solenoid is not getting hot at all. <br /><br />If I touch the Battery Post to the Starter wire with a screw driver over top of the solenoid, the starter motor will turn over. It just will not do it through the solenoid.<br /><br />All of your help is greatly apreciated. I will be doing some more testing on it tonight and try to take the solenoid back.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Bryan Cox
 

Xcusme

Commander
Joined
Apr 21, 2003
Messages
2,888
Re: Need Help, Engine Won't Start

Boy, that sure sounds like a bad solenoid to me! If I understand you correctly, you connected the 2 smaller studs of the solenoid to 12VDC ( one is ground, the other +12VDC) and you did not hear the solenoid coil close (click sound) then that's a bad solenoid.
 
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