Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

[dccordell]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

i would definatly inspect your transom you will kick your self if you dont. your at the point i would just do it to know its good.

I agree.. I had planned to do some drilling but after I accidentally grinded too far into the transom while cleaning up after I cut out the stringers, I found that the wood behind there is solid as a rock. I'm not sure what kind of wood it is, but it seems like some kind of hardwood. Can't tell if it's ply or not... but it's solid. I was super happy about that!

I'm still not 100% sure on the make of the boat because I still haven't gotten the title from the guy, but he has it. All I really know is the side decals say Sport Deck and it is a 1979(ish) model. The closest thing I found to looking like it was this boat, but it's not exactly the same. Kinda looks like mine, yeah?

Liberal... looks like you've got a heck of a good start on that Biesemeyer, especially if the deck & transom are in good shape. I saw you were looking for some answers about the fiberglass stuff... I'm definitely not in any position to give advice but I can point you into the direction of where I found some good reading on it... This is the fiberglass information sticky from this forum. There is plenty of info to fill you in on different types on glass, resins, and the tools you'll need to do the job. It's good stuff from top to bottom.

I've been saving the grinding dust from my shop vac... I was thinking I could use it to make PB if I run out of cabosil. Is that a good idea? Or mix the dust with cabosil?

Oh and btw, that darn fiberglass dust sure does ruin a pair of eye contacts quick! One day and they are done... sheesh, gotta get some goggles!

 

[dccordell]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

Hey guys, quick question. Trying to keep some heat going in my "boat shop" while i'm doing the glassing because temps are getting down into the 20s at night and 50-60 during the day. I'm wondering how long do I need to keep the shop over 60 degrees after applying resin to allow it to cure completely? And is 60 degrees sufficient or should I shoot for 70 degrees or more? I'm worried my wood burning furnace may not stay hot all night long while I'm not there. Just need to get an idea of the cure time. I couldn't really find this info on uscomposites site anywhere.

Thanks! Got the boards pre-soaked... bedding tomorrow, hopefully glassing next Monday.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

70 is great, 60 is OK. You don't necessarily need to keep the entire room warm, you can use a light, just keep it far enough away from the laminate so you don't cook it.

 

[dccordell]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

Ok thanks ondarvr... got my fillets in today. All looks good so far... my next question is how long do I need to wait between putting the fillets in and beginning to apply fiberglass to the stringers? Will the fillets be fully cured by tomorrow? I'm not sure what to expect on the cure times.

I mixed the PB for fillets with only cabosil at first, but after the first two batches, I realized I would run out of cabosil before finishing so I started to mix half cabo, half fiberglass dust I collected from all the sanding/grinding. It seemed to work about the same. I don't know if that would affect curing time. Would like to get started on glassing tomorrow if it is a good idea.

Thanks!

 

[64osby]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

dccordell Here is a link to some deck boats listed here. You might find a match.

http://forums.iboats.com/Deckboats/

One for sale here

http://boats.iboats.com/1985-harbor-craft-dc-17-io/686363.html


It reminds me of a Viking boat with the inverted wind screen.

Great project, keep it up

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

Some people don't wait at all, they go right over the soft putty, others let it get hard. If you let it get hard you will typically need to smooth the surface with sand paper so the glass will lay down well.

 

[drewpster]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

I tried to work it so that I had everything measured and cut that I was going to lay in place during a given session. If you had the time and pre-planned well you could do a complete layup in one session. One consideration is the thickness of the finished material and heat build up. The problem with really thick build ups is that the resulting heat from curing can cause the layup to "cook" and crack up all your hard work. Since you are working in low temps to begin with it should not be a problem. Unfortunately it is impossible to give you an accurate estimate on how much you can build up before it becomes a problem. However I can tell you I was working in summer temps (75-80 deg.), I kicked all my resin batches with the recommended amount of MEKP for a given batch amount and I had no problems working two layers over all my fillets.
In other words I think you will be plenty safe covering a 1/4 inch thick fillet with mat and cloth (or a single 1708). In fact, it may help you to build a thicker during the session. It seems you would need the extra heat since you are working in lower temps.

About the fiberglass dust. Its debatable wether using the dust is a good idea or not. Personally I would not use the dust because it will have contaminates in it. If you are looking for a cheap filler, US Comp carries Talc powder in big jugs. Its cheap, but heavy. You can also build up the mix and make it stronger buy getting some chopped fiberglass fibers. The short 1/4 cut fibers seemed to work well for me. I used Talc to help save on cabosil.

Got any pics of what you have been up to?

 

[dccordell]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

Thanks for the replies!

Guess I could have went ahead and started putting down some glass yesterday right after the fillets... I tried to make them as smooth as I could (with a spoon) so I wouldn't have to sand much. I'll know for sure today when I get over there. Not more sanding!!! :O

Osby... I'll have to do some digging around on there. I've looked at a couple other sites with not much luck. So many deck boats look almost the same, but are different makes. I'll know more about the exact make when I get back over to the POs house to get the title. Just looking for ideas on the interior mostly... carpet colors, locations of lights, speakers, etc...

Drewpster.. yeah, I was working in those darn cooler temps, but I pulled out the wood stove the other day so I've been keeping it pretty toasty in there. Yesterday while I was putting in the fillets it was over 70* the whole time, sometimes nearly 80. I loaded that stove full of wood before I left around 5:00pm so I hope it stayed warm for at least part of the night. I put a couple space heaters in there to help, but they have a hard time keeping up. It was supposed to get around 20* tonight, so it probably got chilly in there last night. I hope the fillets had time to cure.

I'll be using the 1708 today, so hopefully that will help on the curing and heat issue. Never worked with it before, so it will be a learning experience! I've been anxious to get to this point though..

On using the dust, I agree, there were some noticable contaminants in there with the dust. I would sift it through my hands to grab anything that was very large. Of course there was undoubtedly smaller stuff in there I couldn't see (dirt, grinded foam, wood?). I knew I should have ordered more cabosil! That stuff goes fast... I can't believe how "light" that stuff is. It just floats away while mixing! Gotta mix it slow for sure. It made the PB a darker color too, so I'll be able to tell where I used it, and where I just used cabosil. Might have to order some more cabo just incase I need it again.

I've been taking a few pics here and there. I'll take some more today and post them up tonight.

Thanks for all the good help.. you guys rock!

 

[dccordell]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

So I got here this morning and apparently my fire died out some time last night so it got pretty cold in here. My pb is still vey "wet".. I can still push it in with my finger easily! Should I be concerned? Heater is going so it's warming back up.. Will this stuff cure?
I mixed it at the right ratios according to the sheet that came with the uscomp resin... 16oz resin with just under 4ml (barely over 1/8oz) hardener and I put in a few extra drops because of the possible lower temps... Am I ok and just need to be more patient?

 

[oops!]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

. I'm thinking I should be ok without wax on the deck in this situation?

no...you wont....the top layer needs to be waxed ...UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO GELLCOAT THE DECK WITH WAXED GELLCOAT...then carpet it.

I'm wondering how long do I need to keep the shop over 60 degrees after applying resin to allow it to cure completely? And is 60 degrees

24 hours.
but dont worry about it too much.... the magical temp is 77 deg. the glass will cure most in the first 2-3 hours. IF you have correct cat rates.

Personally I would not use the dust because it will have contaminates in it.

dont use it.......use cab....micro ballons...1/4 mini strands...milled fibers...ect.
but the dust is contaminated.

ok....got lots to say....but dont have the time.
the peanut butter you mixed up is still wet for possibly 2 reasons.....
1. you didnt use enough mekp.
2 you didnt mix it well enough.

if you applyed the pb at room temp...then left...there will be enough ambiant temp to help the cure, unless the substraight was really cold.....even then it should have "gotten hard"
if its not hard enough after 24 hours...take it out.

mekp ratio is 1.7-2.5 % of resin....use 2% in your temps.
so...if you are mixing 1 lieter of resin....use 20 ml of mekp.

mix the mekp really well into the resin......this is very important......swishing it with a stick wont do.....i mix a small cup full for about 3 minits !!!.

if you are making pb....add the cat first.....mix well then add the fillers.....this will insure proper mixing.

other quickies......you need a minimum 8 oz glass on the deck.
you also need to glass the underside of the deck....resin coating alone does little.

as ondarvr said....most people lay the csm right over the wet pb.....this will make it easy to roll and you will have a chemical bond to the pb.

ill add more after i get back from work,

cheers
oops

 

[dccordell]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

Oops, thanks for taking some time to make the post. That definitely clears up a few things, and opens up more questions too!

...the top layer needs to be waxed...

Ok... looks like I'll be ordering up some wax. I'm going to need more fiberglass and filler anyways.. The deck will be about 8' x 16' roughly. About how much wax will I need?

dont use it.......use cab....micro ballons...1/4 mini strands...milled fibers...ect.
but the dust is contaminated.

Good thing I used mostly cabosil... unfortunately, I ran out. I did use some dust mixed in with the last batch I mixed because I didn't have enough to make it thick. Should I be watching the areas I used this mix for anything out of the ordinary?
The only area I think I will need PB again will be when I put the deck down. I will probably have at least a little gap around the edges on the hull so I'll probably fill it in with PB. Which mixture would be best for that? Should I use part cabo, part micro balloons, etc...?

1. you didnt use enough mekp.
2 you didnt mix it well enough.

I can eliminate not mixing it well enough because I stirred it for over 2 minutes with a stir stick each time... I had read that 2 minutes was sufficient, so I was going by that. I'll go a little longer next time just to make sure.
On the mixing ratio... I was going by what was recommended by uscomposites, but apparently I need to go a little higher in the mix. I now realize I should have went with the 2% mix instead of their recommended 1%. I was mixing 16oz resin at a time (~473ml) and I was using a little over 4ml mekp plus a few extra drops. I didn't realize that was such a low ratio until just now.. not really even 1%.. ouch! Well that would be my problem probably.. I won't go by their mixing chart any more. I should have done my own homework on those numbers...

if its not hard enough after 24 hours...take it out.

The good news here is that throughout the day today with my "boat tent" being well over 70* all day, all of the resin hardened finally, with just a tacky surface because it's unwaxed. I was worried!

i mix a small cup full for about 3 minits !!!.

And for those that DON'T know (me!), don't mix it, store it, etc in styrofoam cups! You won't like the results, as I learned the hard way today when I tried to pre-measure some resin to use later.

if you are making pb....add the cat first.....mix well then add the fillers.....this will insure proper mixing.

Yep, that's how I did it. I know some people mix the filler in first, but I tried it mixing the filler last and it worked well as far as I could tell.

you need a minimum 8 oz glass on the deck.
you also need to glass the underside of the deck....resin coating alone does little.

I have 2oz CSM for the deck. What material should I use with the CSM on the deck to get the necessary amount of glass? Should I put the CSM down first or last? And on the underside?

---

Ok so today was semi-productive. It seems like I play around with the fireplace and fighting the wind all morning trying to get it warmed up in there, so I get busy with the boat around lunch time. I managed to get one stringer glassed with the 1708. That stuff seemed to go on pretty good. Since I rounded all of the sharp corners, I didn't have many problems with it bubbling up or not sticking. Bubble buster helped with the few spots that got air inside. Went slow with the work trying to get a hang of working with the glass for the first time.

Looks like things will go much better now that I know I need to use more hardener. Just got lucky that the stuff I already put down got hard. It just took it a lot longer to get there! Higher temps tonight and tomorrow should makes things go more smoothly.

I'll post a couple pics in a bit. I wish I had more progress to show, but it will get there soon enough.

 

[dccordell]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

Couple pics... I thought I had more. I'm open to all criticism since this is my first boat project.

Pre-soaking the stringers and bilge bulkhead... nice warm day, and the sun didn't make the resin kick too fast...

This is after the stringers were bedded in PL and filleted with PB. I know the joints in the stringers aren't fancy or the way the pros would have done it, but it was a method I could do quickly and seemed to be pretty darn strong. I rounded all the edges on the "joint plates" so the glass should go over them well. Several SS screws hold them together, countersunk and filled with PB. The other little boards on top are there just for added rigidity for the deck and center console. I'll probably encase them in fiberglass before installing them, and bed them in PL in the grooves in the stringers. I sure hated to cut my stringers to fit those boards in! They are in this pic just to check to make sure the stringers are at the same elevation. And that is my front motor mount sitting in the back... will put it in after I glass the motor stringers. Ignore the PVC for now.

My "glass cutting station". Nothing fancy, but it got the job done.

I wonder if I should just start another thread for posting pics and general conversation/questions about my restoration?

 

[oops!]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

cool about the stuff kicking off. you got lucky !....and if there chart says cat mekp at one per cent....they are lying.

i just got home from making the strakes on an o7 bluewater ...5 hour marathon grinding session followed by a 5 hour glassing session so ill keep this short and get back with more as soon as i can.

as far as the deck....allways use chopped strand mat beside what ever substraight you are glassing on. ....so remember...matt first....
resin is very brittle by itself (crush some resin from the side of a cooked resin cup ! ) if you were to lay a roving next to wood.....you would have resin rich pockets, and a resin rich layer between the substraight and the actual roving.......this would give you a really weak bond....you could break this bond with very little effort.

that is why csm on top of every substraight, reguardless if its going on a layer of hardened matt or not.

when you prep a fiberglass surface for glassing.....you grind it ......i call it rough and scuff.....what you are doing is removing the top layer of resin and getting to the fiberglass.

lol....im tired...ok...the deck.....you need a minimum of 8 oz material....i tanb my edges to the hull with the 1708...then lay 2 layers 1.5 csm down.....then a 6 oz woven product......the 6 oz woven is very thin.....its like silk actually.....this is known as a finishing veil.
this will give you a very smooth top layer to carpet or gellcoat over.

ok...sorry....its midnight here and i gotta eat and get to bed to do it all over again tommorow morning.......ugh !

more later....

cheers
oops

 

[dccordell]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

Dang oops, if I worked for 10 hours straight grinding and glassing, this thing might be done by now! Haha.. 5 hours grinding would is bad enough, then glassing for 5 hours..

...and if there chart says cat mekp at one per cent....they are lying.

Yep, it says it on the mekp bottle. Their chart doesn't specifically say 1% but their measurements for mekp are around that area. Or am I looking at it wrong? This is the mixing chart.

...allways use chopped strand mat beside what ever substraight you are glassing on. ....so remember...matt first....

Ok.. got it.

...what you are doing is removing the top layer of resin and getting to the fiberglass.

Good to go here.. I grinded all of the spots where I knew I would be laying any fiberglass and PL. All the dust!

...i tab my edges to the hull with the 1708...

When you say tab, you mean a continuous run of 1708 all the way around the edge of the deck, right? Lapping a few inches onto the deck and onto the hull...?

...then a 6 oz woven product...

Ok.. going to go ahead and start looking for the 6oz. Since this material is so light, am I correct to think that it shouldn't take as much resin to wet it?

More pics tonight..

 

[oops!]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

When you say tab, you mean a continuous run of 1708 all the way around the edge of the deck, right? Lapping a few inches onto the deck and onto the hull...?

YES


Ok.. going to go ahead and start looking for the 6oz. Since this material is so light, am I correct to think that it shouldn't take as much resin to wet it?

More pics tonight..

the 6 oz is the same carp that you see in wallmarts fiberglass kits.....for 80 bazillion dollars a squair inch
lol.

check your fiberglass store...they all carry it as stock.

the cool thing about a 6 oz veil is that it requires allmost no resin when going on csm wet.....the stuff is so thin it soaks up excess resin from the csm. i really like working with it because it is so easy to lay.

the only thing is that when you lay it......it will have a tendancy to pull corner to corner as the weave is at right angles. (its no big deal but it will take a few seconds to get used to)

here is a tip for laying the 1708.
if you are glassing on a vertical surface like a stringer, or a hull wall. cut the 1708 with the grain of the fabric....
if you cut and lay against the grain.....the top edge will fray and go all wavy on you...its a real pita.
the 1708 comes off the roll sideways.....so if you are doing a section longer than the width of the roll....you have to cut it to the legnth....then from that cut the width.

i know it sounds complicated but its in the thread in my sig

 

[oops!]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

oh....wax is mixed at 3% -5 %.

a good rule of thumb....is to double the amount of mekp you use.......so if you use 10 cc's of mekp....use 20 of wax.

that means if you are catylizing at 2%....your wax is at 4.
wax is also called air dry.

also remember......its only the LAST LAYER.
so if you intend to gellcoat the deck....then use the wax in the gellcoat....NOT the glass.

 

[dccordell]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

USComposites lists a 6oz E Glass. Is this what I'm looking for for the deck?

i know it sounds complicated but its in the thread in my sig

I've read pretty much all of that thread... well I did a while back when I was trying to figure out how to start this project. Good stuff there... I suppose between the time I read through that thread and reading all of the other info on here, things may have gotten a little mixed up. I suggest all folks doing a project like this should read through that thread... even if it takes a couple weeks!

Thanks again for all the help... got the stringers all glassed today. Temps were warm, still ended up using a little over 2% to get it to kick. Those stringers are super solid now. Added another mount for bilge pump too.. Will grab some more pics tomorrow.

 

[69rrvert]

Re: Need some clarity on 'glassin new stringers/deck

I just finished reading your thread. There is a lot of great info here that I will need some day. I still have a long way to go before I am at this stage in my rebuild. Keep up the good work. Thanks, Steven