Need to identify OMC IO Engine on ~1993 Chris Craft 238 Concept Cuddy

[Carmageddon]

Hello,

Me and my friend have bought a Chris Craft 238 Concept Cuddy for about 1k USD, that needs quite a bit of work on it and was poorly maintained, not even covered over last winter, filled with spiders and webs too.

My buddy is a professional car mechanic, I have experience with painting and carpentry, so I would think we do have base skills to work on boat restoration.

Now first order of business, is to identify the engine, obtain service/repair manual to assist us in figuring out what exactly is wrong with it, and see if we can make it work (from there, if it is salvageable and worth doing) - we can do the rest - replace all rotten wood/upholstery etc, the fiberglass hull looks in good shape, with just a few dents.
I found a label with 5BFAPRJUN as "Mod. No." on it, but Googling that does not show anything definitive.

I am hoping the nice folks over here, can pitch in, and help us in a few ways:

1. Identify the engine, so we can procure the correct manual.
2. Any tips on procuring parts, used or otherwise, in a good price? I am in Halifax, NS, Canada so local market kind of sucks for variety and prices.
3. Identify the boat - we are not even sure about the year, the imgur post link includes the hull VIN number, but my attempts to find it at Service Canada have failed so far, its simply not showing up there.. I guess last 2 digits means it is 93' right?
4. Non engine specific tips like procuring parts for the boat, would be appreciated for future reference once we figure out the engine as everything depends on this - I am not sure whether the boat is worth getting a complete brand new engine purchased for it, I think a new 300HP Mercruiser 350 is about 13k USD?

This one, as well as more pictures available on:
https://imgur.com/a/kRjtwo3
(I couldn't upload over 2MB pictures without resizing here on iBoats).


Thanks!

 

[Lou C]

Go over to Crowley Marine and open the OMC/BRP tab and look it up in their catalog. That number you posted is the OMC model # which is how you find part numbers. Those are Ford Marine engines with electronic ignition and EFI. Unfortunately parts for these are tough to get.

 

[Yegboats]

This place in SW ontario may be able to help with used parts. I've bought a couple of used blocks from them. They also have used drive components
https://www.lukenmarina.com/parts.html

 

[Scott Danforth]

The tag 5BFAPRJUN should be 58F which is a 5.8 liter Ford (or a 351)

as other stated, EFI parts are non-existent.

that motor is most likely coupled to an OMC cobra drive.

If you love the boat and plan on doing a full restoration. I would highly recommend pulling everything OMC out of the boat and installing either Mercruiser complete from pulley to prop or Volvo

prior to worrying about the motor, I would do some drill tests into the stringers and tansom.

 

[Carmageddon]

This place in SW ontario may be able to help with used parts. I've bought a couple of used blocks from them. They also have used drive components
https://www.lukenmarina.com/parts.html

Thank you! I talked to them, they say they have all the parts needed to service that engine, however my partner has a snake camera, and used it to inspect inside - its all rusted out internally.
He was unable to take out the manifold, because two of the bolts are so old and tight, their pattern was destroyed tying to unscrew them. Our only option is to lift the engine out of the boat, and then work on it with a drill or something.

The tag 5BFAPRJUN should be 58F which is a 5.8 liter Ford (or a 351)

as other stated, EFI parts are non-existent.

that motor is most likely coupled to an OMC cobra drive.

If you love the boat and plan on doing a full restoration. I would highly recommend pulling everything OMC out of the boat and installing either Mercruiser complete from pulley to prop or Volvo

prior to worrying about the motor, I would do some drill tests into the stringers and tansom.

You helped a lot, thanks! Turns out I was wrong not only about B -> 8, but also U -> V, once I swapped those letters, the number can be found: 58FAPRJVN

I would like to get clarifications on this statement please:

prior to worrying about the motor, I would do some drill tests into the stringers and tansom

He looked down at the stringers, and says they look good, but I explained that the concern is invisible damage to the plywood core of the stringers - however I don't understand, lets say I use 1/4 drill a hole - how do I tell if it is good, or not?
How do I seal that hole after that test?

We are currently considering getting a new rebuilt engine fitted, instead of dealing with fixing this one.

1. Does it make more sense than trying to fix this one, or replace it?
2. How would I know what engines are compatible to the mounts of the old one, so we wouldn't have to do much work to prep the mounts where it would be sitting?
3. How do I know what stern drive is compatible with which engine? like, would Volvo 5.7 work with Mercruiser Bravo 3? or the existing OMC Cobra (if it is still in good shape, I am not sure yet)? in other words what can I mix and match with what?
4. Would I need to get new controls and steering for any new fittings? I know in outboards they say you have to get matching controls for a new engine, cant just use the old stuff.

My friend liked the same engine rebuilt here:
https://www.lukenmarina.com/engines.html only 2k CAD for the engine, not sure how to understand "Long Block" - is that a complete engine? or what?
Or this: http://www.innotech-engine.com/mari...-98-marine-engine-short-block-remanufactured/
He argues that if we get, we should not have headache getting parts and problems, since it is re-manufactured, and if we maintain it properly, there wont be issues and we can have a good resale value of a working boat later, at much less of an investment than investing in a mercruiser in such an old boat..
I like the idea of having the bravo 3 with its dual counter rotating props better suited for water sports, would that possibly work with this engine? What is your advice? I understand initial suggestiong is to walk away from anything OMC. How is Volvo engine vs mercruiser?

Essentially, we are trying to undedrstand the complete cost of getting the boat working (engine wise), to make a decision whether to dive into this adventure, or walk away and resell after a little TLC to make it look nicer for the next buyer wanting to restore it.

 

[southkogs]

Drilling the wood samples, you're looking to see if the wood is wet and/or rotted. The shavings should be able to tell you. I think you can drill a smaller sample, but perhaps drill a few along the stringer or transom. Seal it back up with some epoxy (or at least that's what I would do).

I can't imagine that you can get a boat that needs restoration work (stringers and such) back to usable shape for under about $4k. It's an expensive plan, and honestly few boats that are restored are anywhere near worth what the restorer put into them. With nearly any boat (there are some vintage ones that break the rules) restoring it is a "'cuz ya' wanna'" venture where you're okay spending the money to get it done.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Thank you! I talked to them, they say they have all the parts needed to service that engine, however my partner has a snake camera, and used it to inspect inside - its all rusted out internally.
He was unable to take out the manifold, because two of the bolts are so old and tight, their pattern was destroyed tying to unscrew them. Our only option is to lift the engine out of the boat, and then work on it with a drill or something.




You helped a lot, thanks! Turns out I was wrong not only about B -> 8, but also U -> V, once I swapped those letters, the number can be found: 58FAPRJVN

I would like to get clarifications on this statement please:



He looked down at the stringers, and says they look good, but I explained that the concern is invisible damage to the plywood core of the stringers - however I don't understand, lets say I use 1/4 drill a hole - how do I tell if it is good, or not?
How do I seal that hole after that test?

We are currently considering getting a new rebuilt engine fitted, instead of dealing with fixing this one.

1. Does it make more sense than trying to fix this one, or replace it?
2. How would I know what engines are compatible to the mounts of the old one, so we wouldn't have to do much work to prep the mounts where it would be sitting?
3. How do I know what stern drive is compatible with which engine? like, would Volvo 5.7 work with Mercruiser Bravo 3? or the existing OMC Cobra (if it is still in good shape, I am not sure yet)? in other words what can I mix and match with what?
4. Would I need to get new controls and steering for any new fittings? I know in outboards they say you have to get matching controls for a new engine, cant just use the old stuff.

My friend liked the same engine rebuilt here:
https://www.lukenmarina.com/engines.html only 2k CAD for the engine, not sure how to understand "Long Block" - is that a complete engine? or what?
Or this: http://www.innotech-engine.com/mari...-98-marine-engine-short-block-remanufactured/
He argues that if we get, we should not have headache getting parts and problems, since it is re-manufactured, and if we maintain it properly, there wont be issues and we can have a good resale value of a working boat later, at much less of an investment than investing in a mercruiser in such an old boat..
I like the idea of having the bravo 3 with its dual counter rotating props better suited for water sports, would that possibly work with this engine? What is your advice? I understand initial suggestiong is to walk away from anything OMC. How is Volvo engine vs mercruiser?

Essentially, we are trying to undedrstand the complete cost of getting the boat working (engine wise), to make a decision whether to dive into this adventure, or walk away and resell after a little TLC to make it look nicer for the next buyer wanting to restore it.

take a 5/16" (8mm) drill and put a tape line at 3/4" (19mm) from the end

drill into the transom from the inside. start 1" above the bottom of the hull and about 2" to the sides of the drain plug, drill into the transom the 3/4" and look at the wood shavings

light colored wood shavings that are dry and smell like fresh cut lumber is good

dark colored wood shavings that are wet, smell of rotten mulch, etc. are bad

if you have no rot, then mix up some marine tex epoxy and fill the holes

if you have rot, pull the motor and drive, pull the interior and start cutting the floor out to get access to the stringers and transom to replace them


remember, ford went out of the marine market when the boat was new.

the amount of damage to the motor will determine what your course of action is

dont worry about the mounts, that is such a small concern as most likely you have to re-make them anyway along with the transom, stringers and cockpit floor

to switch to Mercruiser, you must loose the ford motor. only some mid 90's VP's had ford motors, however for most of them, you have to loose the ford motor

you can not mix and match

get new controls, if your motor is rusted on the inside, most likely so are your cables

long block is simply block and heads. you still need all the accessories, an intake, a fuel system, and the exhaust system to make a marine engine.

since your current motor is an EFI with no parts support, it doesn't make sense to keep it.

any of the dual/duo prop drives would be a better drive for the boat. however OMC didnt make one, so you need to pull what you have and replace everything from pulley to props

the engines from Volvo, OMC and Mercruiser were for the most part GM motors with a few ford motors decades ago. until recently when Mercruiser started building their own motors

the cost to get your boat water ready is as follows:

$3,000 USD for fiberglass and supplies to restore your hull
$5,000 USD for a used motor and drive and incidentals to drop into your boat
$2000-$3000 USD for an interior
$1000 for cables, controls and gauges
$1000 misc.

YMMV

 

[Carmageddon]

Ok, an update:
We bought this fiberglass repair kit: https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-fiberglassrepair-kit-0479314p.html?rrec=true#spc

however, when we tried to reach towards the bottom of the transom - it turned out impossible, especially with a drill! The engine is big, we cant reach there without removing the engine first.. how do you suggest we do this?

We saw two sets of stringers (port side and starboard) on the sides of the engine; the closer and lower located one, is much thicker than the next one.

We then noticed very small set of holes, which were drilled to hold some cable on top of that thick stringer!
They no longer hold the cable (like, 3 holes are empty, the rest have a screw holding it).

Anyway we decided to drill from the starboard side, as you suggested 3/4" deep with 1/4" drill as we didnt have a 5/16" available, its almost the same thickness. we inspected the shelvings, and and while they did not feel like, soaked, they were not dry, and not light colored either, seem to be crumbling which does not sound promising

My partner thinks that it'll be years before it is significant, and we can just seal them, rebuild the engine, restore the boat, enjoy it a few seasons, then sell it recouping most of the money.. most buyers wont be doing this kind of check.

What do you think? What is the risk of ignoring this finding? I can imagine in high speed, suddenly the boat splits in two when we hit a big wave?

 

[Scott Danforth]

Ok, an update:
We bought this fiberglass repair kit: https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-fiberglassrepair-kit-0479314p.html?rrec=true#spc

that is a cute little repair kit...... if you had a model boat that would work. if you need to restore your hull, you are looking at about 15-20 gallons of resin, about 20 yards of 1708 and about 15 yards of CSM, about 3 gallons of gel and a whole pile of other materials.

Ok, an update:
however, when we tried to reach towards the bottom of the transom - it turned out impossible, especially with a drill! The engine is big, we cant reach there without removing the engine first.. how do you suggest we do this?

spend the 45 minutes to an hour, pull the drive and motor. you need to do it anyway

Ok, an update:
Anyway we decided to drill from the starboard side, as you suggested 3/4" deep with 1/4" drill as we didnt have a 5/16" available, its almost the same thickness. we inspected the shelvings, and and while they did not feel like, soaked, they were not dry, and not light colored either, seem to be crumbling which does not sound promising

sounds typical for a 28 year old boat that may have been neglected. welcome to the restoration..... time to get the PPE and tools of destruction.

What do you think? What is the risk of ignoring this finding? I can imagine in high speed, suddenly the boat splits in two when we hit a big wave?

it has happened to people I know.

however usually the boat starts taking on significant amounts of water and slowly sinks long before it gets bad enough to split in two.


suggest you and your partner start reading the stickies..... https://forums.iboats.com/forum/boa...r/295740-how-to-s-and-other-great-information

read links 14, 15, 18, 2, 3, 4a, and 4b in their entirety. look at every video and picture.

 

[Carmageddon]

spend the 45 minutes to an hour, pull the drive and motor. you need to do it anyway

How do you remove the stern drive and engine on an hour?

We are still unsure what to disconnect although he is confident we will manage. Only today bought an engine stand, and next need to arrange a tractor to lift out the enormous engine out!

Thanks, I will be reading the referenced material ASAP!

Ps: I would appreciate if you could advise on cheapest place to buy those materials you refer, there are lots of "resin" in the market.

What's CSM?

While he gets to work on the engine, I will need to read a book about fiberglass repairs, to be better familiarwith what I need and what to do...

 

[Scott Danforth]

How do you remove the stern drive and engine on an hour?

We are still unsure what to disconnect although he is confident we will manage. Only today bought an engine stand, and next need to arrange a tractor to lift out the enormous engine out!

you pull the 6 bolts and two trim pins holding the outdrive to the gimble. if normal maintenance has been done, its about a 10 minute job.

you remove the engine (disconnect the fuel, the exhaust, the throttle cable, battery cables and disconnect the harness, then remove the front engine mount lag bolts and the 4 bolts at the trans shield mounts) then lift (about 30 minutes)

you then remove the transom shield assembly (about 10 minutes)

Ps: I would appreciate if you could advise on cheapest place to buy those materials you refer, there are lots of "resin" in the market.

What's CSM?

While he gets to work on the engine, I will need to read a book about fiberglass repairs, to be better familiarwith what I need and what to do...

go to the links I directed you to and read link 14 before you do anything the sticky is the book on fiberglass restoration, and link 14 is the most complete guide you will find.

Ps: I would appreciate if you could advise on cheapest place to buy those materials you refer, there are lots of "resin" in the market..

the cheapest one will be the one you can drive to. the next cheapest one will be the one closest to you that ships with the lowest EPA charge

for me the cheapest place is FGCI.com they are between my work and my house (no shipping), and I have an account (discount)

since you are in Canada, I seriously doubt you want to be buying $1500 worth of cloth and resin from Florida and paying the $150 EPA bill on top of freight and customs.

 

[Carmageddon]

Thank you for the help Scott!

We are near there, we got the engine off with the help of an excavator! Its looking good, in the process of being rebuilt, and I'll be starting working on the body while the engine is out.

Is it worth opening the Stringers currently? My partner believes it still has years of life in it, no need to go through that process..

We have this crack however in the fiberglass compartment between the engine and fuel tank, you can see bare wood:

https://imgur.com/gallery/ZNdDMed

Is that kit I showed you, the correct tool to seal those?
How to completely dry the hole before hand?

 

[Scott Danforth]

wet rotten wood is not years of life in it.

from the pic you linked to, besides a nasty coating of goo in the bilge, it looks like rotten wood under a layer of gel with little to no resin and glass.