New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

[leviwynnyk]

In the fall I picked up a 1996 Glascon 180 Ultra with a Mercruiser 4.3 LX. I had only had a it a few weeks when the starter bolt broke (leaving half in the block). Up to that point I had noticed that it was quite "loud" when starting and didn't work the greatest (Sounded like when you turn the key and the engine is running). To be safe I had the starter rebuilt, a Mechanic pulled the engine, drilled out and removed the bolt and installed the rebuilt starter. It was still loud and he said it was normal (which i didn't believe). Well after taking the boat out about 5 times, it died again. After quite a while of trying to start it, I decided to push against the starer with a paddle while and friend cranked it over and we got it running. I didn't stop it till we got back to shore, but I know its serious. <br /><br />Now my question is what could have caused this?<br />I talked to the previous owner and he said he'd had the starter replaced right before he sold it. I am wondering if he put in the wrong starter or something. I pulled the starer and the was fine metal dust by the fly wheel so I know that was from the grinding I was hearing. Anyways, I'd love to get it fixed so any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated.

 

[leviwynnyk]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

I have added some pics to help. I noticed a spot where there were threads but no bolt, could this have something to do with it? I can take more pics as well. Once again, thanks a lot for any help. I have gotten great advice in the past from this board!<br /><br />

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[DHPMARINE]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

Your starter needs 2 bolts to hold it to the block near the flywheel,maybe another at the front to hold it to the side of the block (not normally used)<br /><br />DHP

 

[lilmandavis]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

ouch.. i think you know what you have to do

 

[Don S]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

It may have had a bad ring gear on the flywheel that took out the first starter. Once the ring gear is damaged it will keep taking out starters.<br />Recently, I have started wondering about all these starter problems and the fact that Merc sells starters with new bolts included. They are knurled and eliminate the excess space between the bolts and the starter housing eliminating the slack and excess movement. I know with old bolts, there can be a lot of excess movement.<br />Could be the problem, but now you have ring gear, and starter problem. Time to fix them all at once and see how things work.<br />When the engine is out to change the ring gear, start it on the floor before you ever think about reinstalling it back in the boat.<br />Along with using that front support on the starter that many just throw away.

 

[leviwynnyk]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

I had purchased 2 brand new bolts to hold the starter in since the old one had broken. So do you guys figure I will need to replace the starter again AND the ring gear? It sounds like it's going to be very expensive. Where would be the most economical place to get the parts from? Should the mechanic have known that this was going to be the problem once he pulled the engine the first time and then put it back together and started it?<br /><br />As for the extra bolt, there was never one with the old starter, where or how do I get a hold of this part or can I just use any old bolt that will fit?<br /><br />Thanks to all who replied, I really appreciate it!

 

[Don S]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

The problem is, you bought the bolts after the problem developed. Once the ring gear was damaged, it will keep on breaking starters.<br />When you get the ring gear replaced, you should get a new bendix installed on the starter since the teeth are now damaged. No since using the old one and have it damage another ring gear.<br />I checked on a 96 LX, and the front support bracket was not used on that model.

 

[leviwynnyk]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

So a new ring gear it is. Looking at it in the pictures, I wouldn't have thought it was the problem. <br /><br />One other thing I didn't mention; there was a piece of the block where the starter mounts broke off a long time ago when it broke the first time. I asked the boat mech if we should weld (or JB weld) it back into place (I found the small piece and it fits back into place perfectly) and he said no but I have a feeling it might be contributing to the flex of the starter. I have posted a pic to show what I mean. <br /><br />Has anyone ever had to get this ring gear replaced? Just how major of a job is it once the motor is pulled? Is it the same ring gear as the autmotive engine or is it a special marine part? Sorry, I have a lot of questions.<br /><br />Don, thanks for all of your speedy replies. You probably realize it, but there are a LOT of people and even their familes who rely on your advice everyday to keep them boating. Thank you for doing this service for everyone.<br /><br />

 

[Don S]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

I wouldn't worry about that missing piece. You still have plenty of support for the starter.

 

[Reel Poor]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

With the repeative problems you are having I would recommend adding the front support bracket to the starter. I know it didnt come with it, but it definately wont hurt anything by adding it.<br /><br />NOTE: Starter bolts breaking are a common problem with engine that hydrolock (water getting into cylinders).

 

[rodbolt]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

I agreee either use the front support or use the permanat magnet reduction gear starter, and even then the front support is nice.<br /> also check the pinion to ring gear clearence. I cant remember the specification but it can be shimmed easily.<br /> quite a few GM V starters require shimming.<br />the ring gear is obtainable from napa. you will most likly have to take it in to match it up as there were a few tooth size and pitches.<br /> its not hard once the flywheel is off. takes 10 min and oxyactelyne.<br />heat the ring gear,drop it on and wait till it cools and its done.<br />that piece thats missing is a critical bore though. thats where that knurled edge of the bolt fits to insure the bolt cannot wiggle.<br />but while its apart and out do check the pinion to ring gear clearences

 

[Reel Poor]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

Originally posted by rodbolt:<br /> also check the pinion to ring gear clearence. I cant remember the specification but it can be shimmed easily.

.020/.030 (using a round guage) between the peak on the tooth of the starter drive and the base of the flywheel teeth when engaged.

 

[speed5]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

I just bought a 93 stingray with 4.3lx motor<br /> with this same problem <br />i changed the starter and still it happend again. so <br />i pulled the motor and changed the flywheel and put a new starter in and it lasted about 12 starts and the same problem returned. also the same thing happend to the mounting bolt hole in my boat but not as bad as in these photos it sad to find out that some else is going through the same problem i heard that there may be a 3 bolt starter is this true

 

[Don S]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

Did you ever replace the starter mounting bolts speed????? No ther are no 3 bolt starters.

 

[leviwynnyk]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

Hey speed5, are you still trying to get it fixed? I am scared now that going through the troubles to replace the Ring gear and get a new starter won't fix the problem. After you replaced the fly wheel and the starter, did it still make the noise for the 12 times before it died all together? If you find a solution before I do, please email me at leviwynnyk@hotmail.com.<br /><br />I have looked everwhere for the front support mounting brackets for this starter but could not find anything. If ANYONE knows where a person could find or order one please let me know, I'd order it in a hearbeat. <br /><br />How do you actually measure pinion to ring gear clearence and how do you shim the starter? <br /><br /> Also, I have seen a few people mention Hydrolock. What causes this and how do you prevent it? My engine runs great, and actually when we did get it runnign the other day, we drove it for about 2.5 hours without shutting it off (I knew I wouldn't get a chance to take it out again for a while. Would an engine with Hydrolock still run good?

 

[horsefly38425]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

starter was not shimed right and has been hittng the flywheel /use a thin shim and if it still hits go with a thicker one till it hits at the right depth in flywheel. you try with no shim and listen / then add one when it hits you can hear it

 

[leviwynnyk]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

Well, before I pull the moor, replace the starter and replace the ring gear, I am going to try the shim suggestion (Can't wreck an already broken starter and flywheel if that's the problem. I picked up 3 sizes at napa for $5 (.02, .04, .06). I am going to start with the .02 and then work up from there. I'll post the results later today. I called a marine shop and they wanted $365 for the ring gear, is this a fair price?

 

[bomar76]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

You won't be fixing anything, just briefly postponing the inevitable. A bad ring gear will EAT a starter in no time flat, and the starter after that, and the next one, etc.

 

[leviwynnyk]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

UPDATE.....<br />Tried shimming the starter with no luck, it kept making that horrible noise and it would turn over a bit then go back, and it kept doing that so I am suspecting that my Ring gear is done, or teeth are missing. I called the mechanic who worked on the boat and he said that on this model, you have to replace the whole fly wheel/ring gear and the part alone is going to be $365. He said you can't just replace the ring gear as described above from napa and that it's different from an automtive ring gear, so now I am in for a HUGE bill! What a nightmare. Thanks for the suggestions and all the help.

 

[DHPMARINE]

Re: New Rebuilt Starter not working and grinding very loud.

Anyone with continuing starter/ring gear problems should go to arcomarine.com and go to their catalog and ""thoroughly"" read tech tip 2.<br /><br />DHP