New-to-me express cruiser choices

[Hai Nhi]

Hello everyone.

After one month looking, I've got about 4-5 options on hand. Please advice:

- 1996 wellcraft excel 26se - 28', fiberglass redone dues to a hit to the dock. Not sure not bad was it but I can't seem to notice it. Was not kept well enough, wear and minor tear shown. There's some hair line cracks on the fiberglass on top. That's all I know . Engine looks ok. Rebuilt outdrive. $13000 firm
- 1997 chaparral 240 signature: average condition, stays in salt water 100% at least for the last 3 years. No trailer. Engine is average based on seller. Asking $17000, said "can't go much lower than $16k".
- 1997 sea ray 240 sun dancer: looks shinny. Only 170 hrs. Asking $22k
- 2000 four winns 248 vista: 26'. About 600 hrs. Sellers said everything's excellent. Only been in salt water the last 2 months for show to sell.Converted to Closed cooling system. Asking $20k
- 2001 maxum 2400 scr: listed as only 100 hrs, $25k. (I heard they're the same manufacturer for bayliner).

I'll try to go check out the last 3 out tommorrow. Which of these would make a great deal ? Is there any condition (pricing and physical comditions) I should ask/bargain for? In general what the brand ladder likes for these?

I need to make a decision which one i should aim to try getting first, 2nd, then 3rd pretty soon. So your advice would be highly appreciated, as always.

Nhi

 

[25thmustang]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Trailering or not?

How many of you will use the boat regularly?

Personally I tend to lean towards boats that need a bit of "work" over turn key ones. You can save some money if your handy enough to fix them up. If your not, I'd lean away from any potentially neglected boat.

 

[tpenfield]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Starting a new thread now that you have narrowed things down . . .

What you like is what will matter most. Condition will trump any brand preferences based on the age of the boats.

just a couple of points based on what you have listed.

there is no such thing as a firm price.

too few hours can be worse than too many hours, as it shows lack of use and probably lack of care. Usually boats are shined up to compensate.

figure about $3k to get a trailer, if needed.

If all other things are equal, I would favor a bigger boat or one that has a more efficient layout.

you did not mention engines, but also bigger is better, particularly when you go to resell.

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

I'm handy as in anything else, but not engines since I never got involved in fixing/getting to know them yet.

I do want to get an older looking boat that has a potential to be waxed up, cleaned, fix it up a little here and there to save money (in turn makes the wifey happy for less $$$ spent). That's why I checked the Wellcraft out, and actually negotiated a price with him. Problem is, he said his boat hit the dock that damaged the front left, and he had to repair the fiberglass. So I'm not sure how's that effect the integrity of the structure, and what not. Also saw some bigger-than-hair-line cracks up above. He said maybe mechanic lift it up to fix the fiberglass, they might have stressed out a bit & caused the cracks. I think it's just got aged out without proper cover for quite sometime. This one has a Volvo Penta 5.7 320Hp, replaced new 8 years ago with I think ~600 hrs. Rebuilt outdrive. $13K.

Also another Wellcraft, 2001 with brand new engine though. 2001 Wellcraft 2600 Martinique

All of these comes with trailer BTW.

I know most of you mentioned about brand irrelevancy compared to quality and upkeep. But if all equals, one brand gotta be better than most, just like buying a car, right? Take Bayliner for example, I can have one quite shinny and new for about ~$10K, Sea Ray =~ $20K, I even see some Formula listed for ~$40K. Hahaha. Problem is, I only know about Sea Ray being quite desirable, but not sure about other brands. So it's tough to know if a boat is even worth making a travel to check out (most of them about more than 1 hr drive from my place, wifey has to either take a day off, or go once every other weekends only).

That's why I keep checking back with you professional on these thing, in general of course.

Ted, you said low hrs could be problem, how to know low mile really translates to longer life left? Is a surveyor good for these?

Thanks again.

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Trailering or not?

How many of you will use the boat regularly?

Personally I tend to lean towards boats that need a bit of "work" over turn key ones. You can save some money if your handy enough to fix them up. If your not, I'd lean away from any potentially neglected boat.

I'd like to trailer since I have a huge yard to park the boat.
We're a family of 4 (2 yrs & 4 yrs old boys). Most of the time would be just us. Maybe a couple of times a year would be with siblings & relatives (4-6 more), once or twice a year max with a bigger group (total 12-16). I have a jet ski too. So if we go in bigger group, some can share that.

Nhi

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Recently replaced/rebuilt engines (not proven or proven to be a problem)

Ted,

you mentioned on the other thread about this. Can you please explain why a replacement engine still not a plus? Even a brand new engine, such as the Wellcraft on craigslist I just posted?

Man, I'm dreaming day & night about getting a killer looking boat, looks good, runs great, impress the wifey so she'll be happy and all. That's why you guys will see me still asking more & more questions, naive ones too. Hehehe. Really appreciate the help and patience.

Merci mucho!

Nhi

 

[tpenfield]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Ted,

you mentioned on the other thread about this. Can you please explain why a replacement engine still not a plus? Even a brand new engine, such as the Wellcraft on craigslist I just posted?

Man, I'm dreaming day & night about getting a killer looking boat, looks good, runs great, impress the wifey so she'll be happy and all. That's why you guys will see me still asking more & more questions, naive ones too. Hehehe. Really appreciate the help and patience.

Merci mucho!

Nhi

All too often I see posts on various forums about recently rebuilt (or newly installed 'remanufactured') engines having issues. So, thinking about the seller's process. . . they went to the trouble and expense to have the engine rebuilt, or put a reman engine in there, and now they are selling the boat? To me that is a red flag.

I would be more comfortable if the rebuilt/reman engine had been put to some good use and had proven itself to be solid. So, that is why I caution on recently rebuilt engines.

 

[MarkSee]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Most of the time would be just us. Maybe a couple of times a year would be with siblings & relatives (4-6 more), once or twice a year max with a bigger group (total 12-16). I have a jet ski too....

If you are thinking about putting 12 people on any of those boats at the same time, that's a disaster waiting to happen whether they have an official capacity plate or not.

Since you are looking at boats 13+ years old and on a budget, getting a hull and mechanical survey done is really what you want to do on the first boat of choice but that will also cost you some money but better than finding out you have a rotting transom after a season.

Mark

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

If you are thinking about putting 12 people on any of those boats at the same time, that's a disaster waiting to happen whether they have an official capacity plate or not.

Since you are looking at boats 13+ years old and on a budget, getting a hull and mechanical survey done is really what you want to do on the first boat of choice but that will also cost you some money but better than finding out you have a rotting transom after a season.

Mark

Thanks Mark. No I'm not putting that many people on the boat. I said that's how many of us usually go camping together. And in the past, we only have ... one jet-ski. Hahaha. Now it's time, hopefully, for an upgrade in lifestyle.

Surveyor is a must, I agree. I just wanna be as better informed as possible by gathering all opinions to be able to spot a good potential boat when I see one.

Thanks again.

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

All too often I see posts on various forums about recently rebuilt (or newly installed 'remanufactured') engines having issues. So, thinking about the seller's process. . . they went to the trouble and expense to have the engine rebuilt, or put a reman engine in there, and now they are selling the boat? To me that is a red flag.

I would be more comfortable if the rebuilt/reman engine had been put to some good use and had proven itself to be solid. So, that is why I caution on recently rebuilt engines.

Don't people replace with brand new engine? Can you tell a brand new apart from a re-manufactured one? How many hours does it have to have to consider a good test that's they're not selling because of problems?

Man, it's like open a can of worms. The more you dig in, the more questions I have. Hahaha.

Is there anyone using a boat broker to help them buy a boat? Would a broker help with all these "detective" work before hiring a surveyor?

Thanks.

 

[tpenfield]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Don't people replace with brand new engine? Can you tell a brand new apart from a re-manufactured one? How many hours does it have to have to consider a good test that's they're not selling because of problems?

Man, it's like open a can of worms. The more you dig in, the more questions I have. Hahaha.

Is there anyone using a boat broker to help them buy a boat? Would a broker help with all these "detective" work before hiring a surveyor?

Thanks.

Rich people replace with new engines, poor people get a reman at 1/2 the price. If I had a reman engine that ran about 30-50 hours without showing signs of trouble, I'd be OK with that. (other opinions may vary)

Boat brokers are mostly for the convenience of the seller (IMHO), I bought my first boat through a broker/marina and they were great. They did a lot of things that I or the seller might have to pay extra for . . . like loading the boat to my brand spanking new trailer. An independent broker may not add as much value to the transaction for the buyer.

I used a broker when I took my road trip to the mid-Atlantic states looking at boats. Brokers take 10% of the selling price as their commission (paid by the seller). They do serve a purpose in holding the deposit money, etc. while you are getting the boat sea trialed and surveyed. Most use a standard contract and abide by a code of ethics. So, there are some advantages to buying through a broker. They work for the sellers, so they are not really going to be your detective.

With my second boat, I worked with some brokers, but in the end I found it through a private seller on Craigslist. The guy did not want any deposit money or anything like that . . . I just gave him the money after the survey and boat acceptance was complete, and we passed papers without much fanfare.

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Great!!!

Both of us will take a day off tomorrow to go check out boats. I finally convinced her it'd be worth it to get a cruiser for the ... "boys".

So far I looked at a 1996 Wellcraft Excel 26SE, 1997 Chaparral 240 Signature. Ok condition. Nothing to wow me yet. I'm planning to look at the following tomorrow:

- 1997 Sea Ray 240 Sundancer, only 200 hrs, pristine condition per seller.
- 2001 Maxum 2400 SCR, 100 hrs with new engine (2001)
- 2000 Four Winns 248 Vista, 550 hrs
- 2001 Wellcraft 2600 Martinique, 60 hrs on 320HP Volvo 5.7 engine (2008)

They're all listed at pretty much in $20-$23K. With trailer. Bimini & canopy and all the goodies too.

I'm particularly interested in the Wellcraft, just because it's first owner, brand new engine, well kept, etc.... Hopefully everything else shows as good as the seller advertised. I checked the website and seems like Wellcraft doesn't make cruisers anymore, true? It also seems lighter than others by ~500lbs. Concerns? I also heard Wellcraft's hull is solid (vs hallow in say Sea Ray, etc...), true/false? Sounds like an advantage, doesn't it?

Any thought?

 

[tazrig]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Hai, Of all the boats you mentioned you wanted to know about all things being equal what brands were better than others. The sea ray and the maxum are the 2 best made of the 4. Wellcraft went bankrupt in 2010 and was bought out by an investment group so who knows what type of support they will or will be able to offer down the road should you need it. (plus those cracks in the fiberglass on the bow send up a huge red flag to me. (think structural) Four wins is an O.K. boat but it is an entry level price point boat like the Bayliner. Maybe one step up. Also don't worry about who makes what. Brunswick Marine is the parent group of Searay, Bayliner and many others. They also make Million dollar boats and own Mercury Marine. (Mercruiser) Bottom line I would rule out Wellcraft for sure and Four winns unless it is the exception to the rule. Decide on one of the other two and have a surveyor check it out top to bottom. Thats about the best you can do with the decision making process. Keep in mind that any boat of that vintage is going to need regular maintenance and updates and upgrades going forward. There is no free ride in this sport... Best of luck! let us know how it turns out and keep the questions coming. The more you know the better decision you can make.

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Cool, thank you. I sure will update the process. I'm still up trying to read up and search for more deals. Hahaha. This is addicting.

Nhi

 

[tpenfield]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Cool, thank you. I sure will update the process. I'm still up trying to read up and search for more deals. Hahaha. This is addicting.

Nhi

Just be careful about what you read on the Internet and hear from people in general about various boats. They are all pretty much the same in terms of how they are built. It is analogous to comparing Ford's versus Chevy's, etc., particularly after 10+ years of prior ownership.

Everybody has their 'list' of boat brand rankings that they think are the 'better' and the 'not so good' brands. Of the 4 boats that you mentioned, I think that they are all somewhere in the middle of the pack, which is fine.

Keep in mind that the asking prices you mentioned are well above the NADAguides for fair market value (I have not checked BUCValue, as my subscription has lapsed). So, don't get yourself into a situation where you make a deal for $20K and the survey comes back at $17K estimated value. Nobody wants to purchase a boat for above 'estimated market value'. . .

 

[Alwhite00]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Whatever one you choose make sure the layout works & flows good. I looked at a lot of boats before buying mine and some boats have a Terrible cockpit layout that does not lend it self to entertaining at all - Total waste of space, different height seating, no "flow" at all. Don't fall in love with the outside till you see what the rest of it looks like.

LK

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Keep in mind that the asking prices you mentioned are well above the NADAguides for fair market value (I have not checked BUCValue, as my subscription has lapsed). So, don't get yourself into a situation where you make a deal for $20K and the survey comes back at $17K estimated value. Nobody wants to purchase a boat for above 'estimated market value'. . .

Uhmmm, didn't think about that. When I check in Nadaguides without any options, all of these comes to really low price, ~$14-$18K. With some bimini, cover and other accessories, it'll come up a couple more thousands. So how should you make offer?

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Whatever one you choose make sure the layout works & flows good. I looked at a lot of boats before buying mine and some boats have a Terrible cockpit layout that does not lend it self to entertaining at all - Total waste of space, different height seating, no "flow" at all. Don't fall in love with the outside till you see what the rest of it looks like.

LK

How you like yours so far? You bought it some time last year right? Did you compare the different between a 240 & a 250?

We already scheduled to go check out boats tomorrow. And my wife was raising a concern about our kids being too young (2 & 4) to be on the boat for safety reason (no seat belt and stuff). I told her we would mostly cruise at lower speed. I'll read more in the forum for this and might start a different thread asking how others with young kids enjoy their boating life. Make me think a bit with ... 5% discourage. Hehehe.

Nhi

 

[tpenfield]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Uhmmm, didn't think about that. When I check in Nadaguides without any options, all of these comes to really low price, ~$14. With some bimini, cover and other accessories, it'll come up a couple more thousands. So how should you make offer?

Yea, that is why NADA is subject to some critique . . . BUCvalue is a better source, as it has more market value inputs than NADA.

According to the 'instructions' that accompany NADA, you are only supposed to add things that do not come as standard equipment on the boat. Sometimes it is hard to tell. I generally add 10% to NADA on older boats 12+ years, and take away 10-15% on newer boats less than 10 years.

Again, they are just guides, but when NADA says $15K and the asking price is $23K, you could rationalize maybe about $18K with trailer.

You might want to sign up for BUCvaluepro as their pricing is more accurate and less guessing. It is also what the 'pros' use.

Both of the boats that I bought in the past 10 years, I got for less than the BUC price and just above the NADA price.

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: New-to-me express cruiser choices

Thanks Ted.

Take the 2001 Wellcraft as an example, NADA says $18600-$21100, without adding the radar beam. BUCvalue says $19,800-$22,000, asking $23k.

Only concern is Wellcraft is out of production, if that matters.

Some people says the ride is a bit noisier than Sea Ray, some says otherwise. Hahaha. I was wondering if these posters have ridden lots of both, or just happen to test the 2 they were looking to buy. I search boattest.com to no avail.

In any case, I'm kinda lean my bias to the Wellcraft as of now, hoping to get a killer deal of it. Unless anyone else suggest otherwise.

Man, I should have go to sleep by now (it's 4:23am here) hahaha. I have a long way to drive all day.

Nhi