No Money for China?

Mark42

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I haven't seen on the news programs the usual emergeny funds and packages being sent to China to help with the earthquake disaster victims. Neither government or private organizations like Red Cross seem to be getting involved.

Is this because we are not on good terms with China for human rights violations, or are Americans just feeling the economic squeeze at home and not giving away their money?

Maybe I just missed all the hoopla about donating relief goods to China???
 

RubberFrog

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Re: No Money for China?

What are we supposed to do, borrow some money from them so that we can give it back as a gift?
 

Mark42

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Re: No Money for China?

I just expected a flood of millions of dollars worth of stuff to be shipped there like we did for the tsunami victims last year.

Actually, I am not a fan of the USA coming to the rescue of any country that has a natural disaster.

And I don't recall reports of other countries sending relief to the USA for the Catrina victims.

Just my 2 cents.
 

bhammer

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Re: No Money for China?

I don't think many (maybe a couple) countries have given money yet. I do know that UPS has offered 1M to China and the USAF, Pacific Command, is slated to send humanitarian aid in the next couple of days.
 

IWELD

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Re: No Money for China?

I saw on the news after it happened that the US and some country in Europe offered soming like 10 million in aid but China refused the help because the US wanted to be the ones who decide where the money was spent for didaster relief. But then China finally started to let other countries help and I believe the US let them have only a half million. They also reported that Russia is helping out quite a bit.
 

Kiwi Phil

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Jun 23, 2003
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2,182
Re: No Money for China?

I believe aid sometimes comes with strings attached, and some times those strings are not acceptable to recipients.
Just because you are a good samaritan, dosn't mean what you think is what the recipients want or need.

I know directly of one country who decided they would aid Loas, with a large new bridge.....but the donor decided they would give the job to their contractors, use their material and labour.
Sort of: I will give you $10m but I will spend it in my own community so it helps me more than it does you, and makes me look good at the UN circus.

On the surface, a new bridge sounds very generous, but the Loatians were in desperate need of the money being spent on this bridge to be circulated in their general community, not just the money the foreign workers spent in bars and ***** houses.
Because they were so poor, they had to accept the bridge, and in the long term, it did benefit the country.

In an earthquake destruction is pretty final, and those that survive do just that....while those trapped are pretty much doomed to death.
Compare that to Burma.........because of that form of destruction, people will be dying for months to come........so they probably need a different form of aid...food....water...sanitation....medicine.

China can provide those needs to its community quickly.........it is probably infrastructure that needs rebuilding...but having said that, I saw a documentary of a province in China that had a large quake, maybe 10-20 yrs ago. The just evacuated the cities....and left them....and they are still ruins....nothing has been done. No one lives there anymore.
Having thought it thru, it was probably a wise move.
I thought at the time it may have been a smart thing to do with New Orleans........just build a new New Orleans in another better area.

We have appeals going for both Burma and China, and the news tells us they are struggling to get donations.....feel it may have something to do with donor fatigue and people struggling to meet their over-committed-budgets.

Yep, we have people who earn a dollar and run 5 up against it on the credit machine too.

Cheers
Phillip
 

jay_merrill

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Re: No Money for China?

Actually, New Orleans received quite a bit of assistance from foreign nations after Katrina. China was one of those countries, donating over five million dollars. As far as I know, Qatar was the single largest contributor, providing 100 million dollars in cash.

As for the wisdom of rebuilding New Orleans, I will keep my thoughts very brief out of respect for iboats' desire to keep political discussions at bay in the forums. That said, I would ask all that think we should have been abandoned, to do some in-depth research as to the economic contribution that our city, and the immediate surroundings, provide to the nation as a whole. We are not just a tourism based town and our contribution is very, very significant in some business sectors.
 

SgtMaj

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Re: No Money for China?

Actually, New Orleans received quite a bit of assistance from foreign nations after Katrina. China was one of those countries, donating over five million dollars. As far as I know, Qatar was the single largest contributor, providing 100 million dollars in cash.

As for the wisdom of rebuilding New Orleans, I will keep my thoughts very brief out of respect for iboats' desire to keep political discussions at bay in the forums. That said, I would ask all that think we should have been abandoned, to do some in-depth research as to the economic contribution that our city, and the immediate surroundings, provide to the nation as a whole. We are not just a tourism based town and our contribution is very, very significant in some business sectors.

I'm in favor of burrying New Orleans (the city, not the people) under about 20' of sand and rock and rebuilding it all over again on top. It wouldn't be the first city to do that, either... Seattle did something like that, and it worked out pretty well for them... What would you, as a resident there, think of something like that?

I realize it would be expensive, but I think it would pay for itself the first time a category 3 or higher hurricane hit the area.

PS - I think we should "donate" some releif aid/money... but only if it counts toward repayment of the money we owe them. :D As someone said earlier, what are we going to do, borrow money from them to donate to them? We should never donate relief aid to countries we owe, instead we should take that time as an opportunity to pay back a larger portion of the debt than we would have otherwise paid.
 

JB

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45,907
Re: No Money for China?

I believe that many other countries assisted Katrina survivors.

I heard on the news about UN, US and other foreign aid supplies being flown into China. The politics of the situation seem to be played down.

The ruling Junta in Burma is afraid of being viewed as unable to deal with the cyclone (as the US was with Katrina), so they want the Burmese to think all aid and assistance comes from their own government. Don't confuse the Burma attitude with the China attitude.

No country can afford to be fully prepared for immediate aid in these major natural catastrophes. It is, as it should be, an international responsibility.
 

SgtMaj

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Re: No Money for China?

Last I heard the Junta in Burma was taking the aid received for itself and still not providing any aid of any substance to the people affected.
 

rolmops

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Re: No Money for China?

China is probably the only country that has the infrastructure to deal with these large scale disasters in a fairly effective way.
They are having one of these terrible events just about every twenty or thirty years,which,together with certain traditions,forced them to be as prepared as possible for disasters of this magnitude.
The real terrible part is the human suffering.China has had the one child per family policy for many years now and in this disaster the children that were lost were not ONE child in the family,but THE child in the family.
The one thing that struck me is the fact that the Chinese did not clamp down on the news.They were open about it and foreign press was allowed to be everywhere.This is a sure sign that the China of today is a very different nation than the China of thirty years ago,and probably for the better.
As for New Orleans, it was the victim of squabbling politicians twice.First they redirected money that was intended to improve the levy system to pet projects and after the Katrina disaster, different politicians "outsourced" aid money into their friends pockets,leaving New Orleans high and dry in the wrong sense of the word twice in a row.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: No Money for China?

I'm in favor of burrying New Orleans (the city, not the people) under about 20' of sand and rock and rebuilding it all over again on top. It wouldn't be the first city to do that, either... Seattle did something like that, and it worked out pretty well for them... What would you, as a resident there, think of something like that?

I would not try to raise the entire city. While the population was never particularly high (and is even less now), it is a large city geographically. From the most eastern point of the populated areas, to the Parish line on the west side, it is about 20 miles wide. From north to south at the tallest point, there is about 7 - 8 miles in distance. Given the irregular shape of the city, I'll "guestimate" the square mile size at about 125 - 130. With this much area involved, I just don't see trying to fill it as a cost effective solution.

In order to understand how New Orleans got to the point where it could be so immensely destroyed by a hurricane, it is important to understand just what happened here, and it is important to understand the history of the development of the city.

First, New Orleans was situated in its current location because doing so made sense. There was a natural high point (obviously a relative term) along the "esplande ridge" and there was easy access to both the river and Lake Ponchartrain. Even given this higher terrain, however, flooding was a problem in the early years of the city. Because of this, the first levees were built in the early 1700s, and such was the beginning of the struggle against the Mississippi River and storm flooding.

If we "fast forward" to the fifties and sixties, the beginning of the modern day problems can be seen. By the time those "boom years" occurred, New Orleans had both an effective pump system in place and an extensive grid of levees. Because of these things, I think a very serious sense of false comfort existed, the result of which was quite a bit of home construction featuring living areas at or close to ground level. In particular, the nationwide trend towards building single story, slab mounted ranch houses, became popular here too. Even the houses that were not slab mounted tended to be mounted on short, cinder block piers. These houses were/are typically only about three feet above grade.

After Hurricane Betsy, in 1965, there was renewed interest in protecting not only New Orleans, but many areas across the U.S., from the effects of flooding. The Flood Control Act of 1965 tasked the "Chief of Engineers (Army Corps of Engineers) to design and construct, among other things, flood control structures around the country, With respect to New Orleans, what was a key issue in the situation, is that the responsibility to design and contruct levees in the region, became the responsibility of the Army Corps, not local or State agencies. Sadly, we have since learned that the Corps didn't do a very good job of doing so. I know there is a lot of debate about this issue but even the Corps has acknowledged this fact.

So, what to do now? Two things, I think. First, the entire country, who's dollars are being used to finance the extensive flood control and levee projects going on in my city right now, must demand that the Corps do a proper job of its work. Second, we as citizens in this area must change the way we live. In particular, one of the most important things that we must do is to return to a construction method that the earliest settlers of the French Quarter adopted - namely, to build houses so that the living areas were a minimum of eight feet off of the ground. To continue to build slab houses and slightly raised houses is folly. I also think that use of sheetrock on any level that may be susceptable to flooding needs to stop, because much of the problem that we experienced was directly related to having to rip the stuff out for mold remediation.

New Orleans is a vibrant city that contributes much to the Country both economically and in terms of culture. It can and should be saved and the lessons learned in our disaster should be used to better our ability to respond to emergency needs in other parts of the country. There is also no reason why we can't become as good as the Dutch at keeping water out of places that we don't want it.

And, for those that think that New Orleans is the only place with flooding problems, consider the list of places that Congress felt needed protecting in 1965:

St John River Basin, Maine
Housatonic River Basin, Connecticut
New England - Atlantic Coastal Area
Long Island Sound
New York - Atlantic Coastal Area
Elizabeth River Basin, New Jersey
Rahway River Basin, New Jersey
Neuse River Basin, North Carolina
Middle Atlantic Coastal Area
Flint River Basin, Georgia
Central and Southern Florida Basin
South Atlantic Coastal Area
Phillippi Creek Basin, Florida
Lower Mississippi River Basin, adapting the Birds Point - New Madrid project enacted by 45 Stat. 34 at an estimated cost of $189,109,000
General Projects - Grand Isle, Morgan City, and Lake Ponchartrain, Louisiana (Lake Ponchartrain at a cost of $56,235,000)
Ouchita River Basin, Louisiana
Red River Basin, Arkansas, Louisiana, and Texas
Gulf of Mexico - various bayous in Texas
Rio Grande Basin, Texas at a cost of $12,493,000
Arkansas River Basin, as authorized by the Rivers and Harbors Act of 1946 - various creeks and rivers in Colorado, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas
Missouri River Basin - various creeks and rivers in Kansas, Iowa, South Dakota, North Dakota, Missouri, and Montana
Ohio River Basin - various creeks and rivers in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, Virginia, West Virginia
Red River of the North Basin
Upper Mississippi River Basin - various projects in Iowa, Illinois, Missouri, Minnesota and South Dakota
Great Lakes Basin
Little Colorado River Basin
Gila River Basin, Arizona
Eel River, Whitewater River, Santa Ana River, Sacramento River, San Diego River Basins, California
San Francisco Bay Area
Columbia River Basin, Oregon and Washington
 

SgtMaj

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
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Messages
1,997
Re: No Money for China?

clearly it would be expensive... but even at 100 billion... it still pays for itself in one katrina size storm.

I just think that if you're going to do it, do it right reguardless of how much it costs. It'll save you in the long run.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
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Re: No Money for China?

I hear you Sarge, and tend to agree but I'm not sure that it would be the right solution. My "missive," above, was getting kind of long so I left a couple of points out. One of those is that we have a significant subsidence problem here - in short, we are sinking all of the time. Trying to fill the place in and raising it with dirt might work for awhile, but the benefit wouldn't last for long.

What I do think you are absolutely right about, however, is that it would be much better to get the job done right from the start. Living as if the levees will always protect us isn't realistic. I think that we have to assume that one storm or another will breach a levee somewhere and we must be prepared for that. Nature wants to flood this place periodically and I think we ought to build with that basic reality in mind. Doing so would allow us to be in a "clean up mode" rather than a "total disaster mode" after a flood.

Since I am sharing a little from a first hand perspective again, I'll offer another opinion. One of the things that has truly been a "disaster after a disaster" for the American public, is the astounding waste of taxpayer dollars involved in the original emergency response, and in the recovery stages. There are so many layers of contractors involved in most of what goes on around here that everything costs the Federal Gov't insane amounts more than it needs to.

For example, the FEMA Trailers that everyone has heard so much about, ended up costing about $75,000 (average) per unit, installed. Given that the units involved could be purchased for about $20,000 at the time, at retail prices, I would think that they should have been available for no more than $17,000 each, on a wholesale basis. That means we have all been paying about $58,000 per unit just to tow them behind a contractor's F350 type vehicle, mount them on cinder blocks, strap them down, and install water/sewer/utilities. This is but one example of a host of cost related shenanigans that have been going on. What is frightening about the situation to me, is that it is not the result of graft and greed locally. Rather, it is a result of complete mismanagement at the highest levels of government.

This sitution has hurt us as a city because the astounding waste of money involved has slowed down our recovery. This is true simply because the more we spend on one thing, the longer it takes to get more to do all the other things that we need to accomplish. It is also true because the raw numbers very rightfully scare the heck out of most Americans. No one wants to feel like their tax dollars are being squandered on something that will not have a proportionate benefit to the entire country, and the further away from "reality" those expenditures go, the more Americans feel like the money is not well spent.

As I have been writing this, I remain mindful of the fact that we ought not get too pollitical on the boards here at IBoats. But, for those of us who have lived the nightmare of Katrina, it is hard not to describe the things that have gone on for nearly three years, without getting a bit intense and opinionated. That said, what I do think the rest of you can take from our experience is an understanding that you are but a natural disaster, or terrorist attack, from being in exactly the same situation. Be personally prepared to deal with whatever you have to, and insist that your elected officals do something more than to pass "feel good" legislation that, while it may get them re-elected during the next round, doesn't really deal with the problems.
 

aspeck

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Messages
19,103
Re: No Money for China?

Excellent posts, Jay_Merrill. Thanks for the insight. You have caused me to rethink my attitude toward the mess that Katrina left in the New Orleans area.

As for China relief, I went to a Chinese Restaurant for lunch yesterday and they had a jar at the cash register for donations to China.
 

kenimpzoom

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Jul 13, 2002
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Re: No Money for China?

China has plenty of money and doesnt need our money. They have taken our disaster supplies (probably made in china anyway).

Thailand didnt take any money during the tsunami as they can take care of their own and thought it should go to the poorer countries.

Ken
 

Mark42

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Joined
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Messages
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Re: No Money for China?

China has plenty of money and doesnt need our money. They have taken our disaster supplies (probably made in china anyway).

Thailand didnt take any money during the tsunami as they can take care of their own and thought it should go to the poorer countries.

Ken


And thats the way it should be.
 
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