No spark

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

KY, I checked out my multi-meter and it doesn't mention ammeter, so I stopped at Radio-shack over lunch and picked this unit up. I haven't opened it (in case it has to go back), but it doesn't say anything about 0-40 ammeter anywhere. Will it work?

here is the linkhttp://www.radioshack.com/product/i...=&origkw=ammeter&kw=ammeter&parentPage=search...

 

[Solittle]

Re: No spark

I'm not clear on the issue with the bent/broken plugs. Was the bent/broken part inside or outside of the cylinder? If inside you need to do some more checking. If outside could you have broken them when removing them?

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

It was outside. Most likely it was caused by installing or removing the plugs.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

Ok, well, the tester I bought today from Radio Shack is likely going back. I can't get the Ohm's function to zero out and I haven't seen where I can do an ammeter test as KY described.

Now the question, where do I find one?? Also, I can't figure out how to do the Voltmeter tests shown in the manual with my multi meters. Maybe it's not possible. It seems that's all I can find is multi meters. Hmm...

The only test I was able to perform with what I have is the Charge Coil Ohmmeter Test. On that test, using a digital (inexspensive) ohmmeter, I got 743 Ohms on the starbird side and 816 Ohms on the port side. The manual calls for 970 +/-15 Ohms. I also tried the test for grounds and found none.

What to do at this point? Again my battery checked out ok and installed on boat I got 12.4 volts directly at battery and 12.2V at fishfinder. I haven't had another chance to get to lake or set up a tank.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

Can the low ohms on the stator cause the issues with the volts not coming up as the motor revs?

KY, as far as what you explained before regarding the Ammeter, I think I understand, but correct if I'm wrong. I unhook the battery, then I hook the red wire from Ammeter to the battery side of solenoid. I unhook the red wire from rect/reg and hook it to the black wire on Ammeter. I hope that is correct, now if I can find an Ammeter that works.

Thanks again for all the help, I hope someday this all ends.

 

[jtexas]

Re: No spark

If you're looking at the rapair pdf file linked above, the voltage specs for stators, packs & coils are measured in peak AC; a regular voltmeter or multimeter only measures AC at RMS or average. It takes a DVA (Direct Voltage Adapter) for your DMM or a specialized peak AC reading voltmeter. I have seen another trick for doing it with a DC voltmeter posted here but haven't tried it. I'll look for the thread.

To access the wires for testing some of the components you have to disconnect a connector and use jumper wires to reconnect the pins and slots.

You tested grounds and found none...sorry didn't quite follow your meaning.

Your ohm test results of the charge coils indicate faulty stator. You don't seem too confident though.

With the rectifier, you can still do the ohmmeter test on it, if it fails that it's no good. The ammeter test on the charging circuit is a moot point if you need a new stator anyway.

 

[KYHunter2]

Re: No spark

The reason i gave you the rect/reg test first, is, it is more often it, then the stator.

Yes batt. side of strtr. sol. and the red rect/reg lead.

You don't need ohms scale, for the output test, its current measured in amps.

Ohm's is a measurement of the resistance to current flow.

The reason for 0-40 range ammeter , is to cover the various amperage charging systems.

Yours should be 3/9 regulated, being you have power trim.

So your shooting for around 9 amps. during the 4500 rpm test.

Then follow the above info. I gave you.

Check your manual to be sure that you have the 3/9 system.

If the rect/reg does not read as I instructed you , ( reading according to your system) THEN test the stator.

If the stator is ok, replace rect/reg.

Series means , to put it simple , like you were spliceing a broken wire from solenoid to red rect lead.

Using the test leads as the wire and ammeter in the middle.

KYHunter

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

jtexas,

The grounds I was testing for was "faults" or grounds that shouldn't be there. Not finding any is good. However, the other part isn't good.

I'm not totally confident on the ohm readings, but they are probably correct. I was hoping to use the tester I bought to verify, but it isn't working right.

As for the ohm test on the rectifier, I'll try to do that.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

jtexas-Connect one ohmmeter lead to one of the AC inputs (from stator) of the rectifier, and the other ohmmeter lead to the red (+) wire. Note the reading. Reverse the ohmmeter leads. You should have a reading in one direction and open circuit in the other. Any other result indicates bad rectifier. Repeat the test using the other AC input.

Ok, I did that. I hooked the black wire of my ohm meter to the red wire and the red wire of ohm meter to yellow wire and got -1100 Ohms. I then did the same but to yellow/gray wire and got -600 ohms. These jumped around. Hope this was correct. If I reversed the red and black wires of ohm meter I got a reading of "1", which is where my digital ohm meter "rests".

Using KY's method,
Dis connect rect. leads at the term. strip.

With your meter on high ohms scale connect one lead to yellow wire and one to ground, remember reading, reverse leads and compare .

Should be 0 (zero) one way infinity the other .

Do the same with yell/grey wire.

If its not as indicated, diodes are toast and you need a new rectifier.

I got this.... then realized you said disregard.
Black wire on ohm meter to yellow wire of reg and red wire of ohm meter to ground. -715 (this varied a bit up/down).

Red wire on ohm meter to yellow wire and black wire of Ohm meter to ground, Ohm meter stayed at "1"

Black wire on ohm meter to yellow/gray wire and red wire of ohm meter to ground. -730 (+/- maybe 5).

Red wire on ohm meter to yellow/gray wire and black wire of ohm meter to ground. Ohm meter stayed at "1".

The strange part is I thought at 1st both ways gave me 1. I then ohmed the gray wire and got 9 both ways. I tested again the above and got those figures. Maybe I just hadn't reversed the wires at that point. If this paragraph is confusing disregard.

 

[KYHunter2]

Re: No spark

Brian according to your results using the method I described your rect is bad.

Unless your meter only reads to say 750 ohms or 750 k ohms .

Then its probably ok.

Infinity is max on whatever the scale, and your resting ohm's of 1 is same as zero.

I didn't mean all of my previous info.

A $5.00 analog meter from wal-mart is fine to do the resistance. test on rect.

It should peg the needle one way and be zero the other.

Brian , I know it gets confusing, but you need to go in some kind of order.

A bunch of jumping from testing this, to testing that , is futile and time consuming.

You need to go step by step.

The way I told you is according to test procedures.

If you started with the ohm's rect. test , and either found it bad or good then go to stator, etc. etc.

KYHunter

KYHunter

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

The reason i gave you the rect/reg test first, is, it is more often it, then the stator.

Yes batt. side of strtr. sol. and the red rect/reg lead.

You don't need ohms scale, for the output test, its current measured in amps.

Ohm's is a measurement of the resistance to current flow.

The reason for 0-40 range ammeter , is to cover the various amperage charging systems.

Yours should be 3/9 regulated, being you have power trim.

So your shooting for around 9 amps. during the 4500 rpm test.

Then follow the above info. I gave you.

Check your manual to be sure that you have the 3/9 system.

If the rect/reg does not read as I instructed you , ( reading according to your system) THEN test the stator.

If the stator is ok, replace rect/reg.

Series means , to put it simple , like you were spliceing a broken wire from solenoid to red rect lead.

Using the test leads as the wire and ammeter in the middle.

KYHunter

Well, using the rule of Brian, it's the most expensive part that will break! :^

I'm not sure what you mean by 3/9 regulated. If you are saying it's a 9 amp system, it's not it's a 35 Amp Charging System. If you mean something else. I'll have to find that in the book. Haven't seen that yet.

I did the Charge Coil Test on the stator first only because it was the one test I could do out of the water not running. As soon as I can get back to lake or get my tank set up, I'll do the others. Unless we determine, from what I stated above, what my issue is.

Again, I can't seem to locate an ammeter that will work. Radio Shack isn't what it used to be....:'(

 

[KYHunter2]

Re: No spark

I didnt know they put the 35 amp on 150's , but what do I know.

All still applies , just shoot for the 35 amps at 4500 rpms.

What range did you have your meter set to during rect ohms test, if 750 its probably ok , as your readings would be at the infinity mark .

And the 1 at rest , = zero.

Whats wrong with the ammeter ?

KYHunter

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: No spark

I'm lost here! Your first post talked about smashed, or broken plug's. Address that problem first.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

I had my ohm meter set at 2000k to get the last results.

Ok, so for jumping around, have I gotten no where or do we still think the rect is bad? What about stator with the Charge Coil Test results I had?

I'm not trying to jump around, according to my manual, I really only jumped past the Charge Coil Cranking Tests, which I can't do with what I have. Unless there is a work around(maybe that's what you gave me). I don't have a C.D. Voltmeter. Step 1 is the Total Output Test. I decided that was fine. Then it tells me to jump to Running Tests, which is the Cranking Test I couldn't do. The next one is the Charge Coil Test.

I'm not trying to be difficult and thanks for being patient, I don't really understand all of these different meters and such. I understand Ohms and Volts, but after that I get confused! Once I can get some water and an ammeter I think I understand that test as you outlined.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

I didnt know they put the 35 amp on 150's , but what do I know.

All still applies , just shoot for the 35 amps at 4500 rpms.

What range did you have your meter set to during rect ohms test, if 750 its probably ok , as your readings would be at the infinity mark .

And the 1 at rest , = zero.

Whats wrong with the ammeter ?

KYHunter

2000k setting on Ohm meter.

ammeter, I'm not sure the one I bought is what I thought it was. I'll re-read the instructions for a 3rd time, but it looks like the ammeter works off of looping the meter over the wire. Again, these confuse me a bit.

Did you check out my link about it? Part of my other concern with it was, it is supposed to check Ohm's as well, but I couldn't get it to Zero out. Maybe this one is bad.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

I'm lost here! Your first post talked about smashed, or broken plug's. Address that problem first.

Actually, it was about no spark. I believe all is fine, I thought it had all been covered. I changed spark testers and got what appeared to be good spark and replaced the broken plugs which were broken on installation or removal, most likely by plug wrench.

 

[klicknative]

Re: No spark

You can get a test ammeter at Napa or Carquest that you hold on a wire and will read current flow. KD Tools #2423. It has 2 scales and can be used to check charging and starting systems. 12.5 volts with motor shut down sounds good to me.

 

[KYHunter2]

Re: No spark

If set at range you indicated the rectifier is bad.

Should read as max ohms one way zero the other .

When you reverse leads.

Just run a jumper from sol. to red rect. lead and hang ammeter pick-up over it.

Mute point, if the resistance readings you posted, are accurate.

KYHunter

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

KY,
Ok, I had the Ohm meter set at what I indicated for the test you outlined and got those readings. So you say because of that the rectifier is bad because it should have read 2000K at that setting. Correct?

What about my stator? Do I replace the rectifier and then test stator again or is it slowly going out on the charge coil side? When I did that test I had the Ohm meter set at 2000. If the charge coil goes out, then I'm guessing I loose the ability to charge the battery as well. Anything else go? Can this ruin a new rectifier?

I also verified per my manual and the 150ST's are 35 amp. Other 150's are 9 amp. Mine is an ST.

I started wondering about hanging the ammeter over the wire, glad to know that will work.

I think this is starting to make more sense now. Let's see if I'm getting this straight. The stator generates power, then it passes it through the rectifier from the yellow and yellow/gray wires. The rectifier then in turn regulates that power to 35 amp, which in turn via the red wire passes it back to the battery side of solenoid to charge the battery.

I realize there are also 2 wires from the stator to each power pack and I'm guessing those are from the exciter coils, which provides the spark. On my engine they are brown/yellow and brown/black.

If that is correct, I'm wondering if I checked the correct wires on the stator. Reason being. If the wires from stator to power pack are from the exciter coil, and the yellow & yellow/gray wires to the rectifier must be from the charge coil. Am I correct here? If so, then the book misled me and I tested the wrong wires on my stator test. For the stator test, I tested both sets of brown/yellow and brown/black wires. I did this because they are the ones connected to the plug shown in the book. However, looking back through the OMC manual and my Clymers manual, it looks as if both are looking at the plug, which the brown sets of wires go into.

If that's the case and my readings are as I posted, should I replace the stator as well? Could one piece have caused the other to go bad? I sure don't want to buy $500 worth of electrics, but I don't want to ruin either piece.

Does this ever end?

Would the boat still run good, as it seems to be doing if both pieces have the issues I've found?

 

[jtexas]

Re: No spark

Stator contains separate sets of coils for rectifier, triggers and the charge coil. All independant.

Let's recap...you started with no spark which turned out to be a test equipment malfunction.

You reported "I was a bit concerned about the spark on #1, but it was there and even blue at times. I say I was concerned, mainly because there were a few times it didn't seem real consistant."

If the other 5 have good strong blue spark, you can easily rule out the ignition coil on #1 by swapping coils with another cylinder.

The rapair guide says the acceptable range of charge coil resistance on a 1986 150 with 35-amp alternator is 735 to 935. It also says the wires are brown and brown/yellow. Sorry I don't really know what to make of the discrepancy with the OMC manual....

Not sure we ever determined whether the battery is charging, but if it is, then the rectifier is good. You can determine that by observing your fishfinder while running the motor...if volts increase then it's charging.

I believe you were doing a link & sync, but you never said why.

hope that helps.