This is an 'addendum' from the post linked below. Moved here 'cause the original post was getting too long.<br /><br /> http://www.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=008398#000032 <br /><br />My email & response from Stuart Hastings. (My original email noted by the '>' mark.<br /><br />On Sat, Aug 28, 2004 at 02:52:07PM -0400, LakeLivin wrote:<br /><br />> Hi Stuart, I got this email address from one of your web sites, hope<br />> you have the time and patience to hear me out. Sorry about<br />> contacting you directly, but in a way it's your own fault for the<br />> masterful job you've done in researcing & documenting the OMC Cobra<br />> issue, lol.<br /><br />Well, I intentionally left my email address somewhere in the web<br />pages, so yes, I get emails from time to time. Many come from outside<br />the U.S...<br /><br />> I apologize in advance for the length of this, but want to make sure<br />> I portray everything as completely and objectively as possible. I'm<br />> not looking for any specific technical advice, just your overall<br />> impression based on the facts.<br /><br />Not a problem. You write well.<br /><br />> I have a 1989 Seaswirl with a 4.3L OMC Cobra. In June 2003 I took it<br />> to the only repair shop on our lake (owned by a neighbor) to have<br />> the engine tuned and the outdrive serviced. I know OMCs are<br />> different animals from Mercs so I asked the owner if they had OMC<br />> experience and he said no problem. My boat had only 416 original<br />> hours on it at the time. After the boat was done I drove it home<br />> approx. 4 or 5 miles.<br /><br />> The next day I drove it approx. 1 mile to a friend's house. When I<br />> left to return home the outdrive started screaming (an extremely<br />> loud whining noise, kind of like a jet airplane). It was 11:30 pm so<br />> I limped home and called the repair shop the next day to report what<br />> had happened.<br /><br />> The mechanic and the shop manager came out, listened to the drive,<br />> and checked the gear oil. It didn't register on the fill stick so<br />> they checked the drain plug to see if there was any oil in the unit<br />> (there was). They added a full tube (10 oz) of gear oil they had<br />> brought with them, along with what was left of a partial tube<br />> (approx 1/2 to 3/4 full) I had in the boat house. When I checked the<br />> level the next day it was still low so I got some more oil and added<br />> maybe an additional 6-8 oz. All in all, it required a total of an<br />> additional 20-25 oz. or so to bring it up to full capacity (2<br />> quarts).<br /><br />> When the shop manager and mechanic checked the low fluid level they<br />> discussed whether the unit had been filled from the bottom (drain<br />> plug) or from the top of the drive (where the measuring stick<br />> is). The mechanic stated that he had refilled the oil from the<br />> bottom drain plug. Neither was aware that OMC Cobra outdrives have a<br />> specific fill plug several inches above the drain plug.<br /><br />> When I ran the boat after refilling the outdrive oil I noticed a<br />> whining noise coming from the outdrive that hadn't been there<br />> before. This was much more subdued than when it first happened but<br />> still definitely noticeable to me. I called the shop owner to<br />> mention my concern and he came out to listen to the drive. He said<br />> he didn't think there was anything abnormal about the sound (but he<br />> hadn't heard the drive before the incident so he really didn't have<br />> a specific baseline for comparison, either).<br /><br />> A neighbor who was very familiar with the boat did note the change<br />> in sound the first time he rode in it after this happened. He hadn't<br />> heard about the incident with the low outdrive gear oil but<br />> independently commented on the change in the boats sound. He thought<br />> the boat sounded 'kind of turbocharged' after the tune up, but when<br />> I shifted the boat in & out of gear it was clear that the extra<br />> noise he noted was coming from the outdrive.<br /><br />> Shifting became progressively harder as I ran the boat sparingly for<br />> the rest of the summer (approx. 17 hours).<br /><br />> Before launching the boat this spring I was still concerned about<br />> the outdrive so I took it to a shop with a reputation for OMC<br />> expertise (about an hour and a half away) to have them pull &<br />> service the drive. The manager called me back and told me that the<br />> gears and bearings were shot and would need to be replaced. I asked<br />> him if the damage was consistent with what might happen if the drive<br />> had been run significantly low on oil, and he replied that it was<br />> (or that someone had hit something hard with the prop, which I know<br />> didn't happen).<br /><br />> Reasonably certain the damage had been caused by the local shop who<br />> had left the oil level low, I explained the situation to the owner<br />> and made the following suggestion: that I would pay for parts (gears<br />> & bearings) at their cost if they would do the labor for free. They<br />> told me to bring the boat back and I did.<br /><br />You are very generous.<br /><br />> Over two months later they told me the boat was finally done and<br />> sent me an invoice that was $150 more than the other place would<br />> have fixed it for. Turns out instead of replacing the gears &<br />> bearings, they put in a completely rebuilt upper drive plus they<br />> charged me for half the labor (they've since agreed to cut out labor<br />> completely, but the rebuilt outdrive is still more than twice the<br />> cost of new gears/ bearings).<br /><br />> In the meantime, I found your site about OMC Cobra outdrives and the<br />> tips you received from the OMC service tech people, specifically:<br /><br />> ? When filling the Cobra with gear lube, use the middle fill plug,<br />> as shown in the Owners' Manual. Do not fill through the (bottom)<br />> drain plug! If you fill from the wrong port, you will probably trap<br />> a big bubble of air inside the vertical drive, and that bubble will<br />> eventually rise to the top. When it does, the upper gearcase gears<br />> will run dry, and self-destruct. As they say in the computer biz,<br />> "RTFM."<br /><br />> Now instead of being reasonably sure the first shop caused the<br />> damage I'm about as close to 100% sure as you can be. I'm furious<br />> that my gesture to 'split' the cost to fix the boat was so badly<br />> manipulated. The shop owner claims that the damage wasn't due to the<br />> low gear oil, but that something else 'just happened' to go wrong<br />> with the drive exactly at the same time they left the gear oil<br />> low. He sited the age of the boat (15 years) ignoring the fact that<br />> it only had 415 original hours on it. The shop owner also sited the<br />> following reasons he thought the damage wasn't due to the low gear<br />> oil:<br /><br />> 1. He said the gears weren't 'blackened' and that there was no burnt<br />> smell in the outdrive (of course the gear oil had been drained by<br />>the other shop a couple of months before the original shop ever opened<br />>it up).<br /><br />So what? Running the gears and bearings without oil is abuse. OMC<br />gears might be made of a different alloy that doesn't fail the same<br />way as the MerCruisers he's evidently familiar with. If these folks<br />are not familiar with Cobras, how would they know what a typical gear<br />failure looks like?<br /><br />> 2. He said the timing wasn't consistent for this type of damage (I <br />>drove it 5 miles, let it sit over night, and drove it another mile<br />>before the outdrive started screaming).<br /><br />Has this person ever worked on another Cobra with this failure?<br /><br />> 3. He said the boat wasn't driven long enough for the damage to have<br />> resulted from low gear oil.<br /><br />I'll bet that Bombardier/OMC would disagree with this.<br /><br />Question for the shop: How long would a slack-filled MerCruiser last<br />in similar conditions?<br /><br />> 4. No gear teeth were completely missing.<br /><br />I don't think this is relevant.<br /><br />> They didn't show me any of the bearings but did show me the gears<br />> and claimed that because they weren't 'blackened' the damage<br />> couldn't have been due to the low level of gear oil they left in the<br />> drive. I saw that the gears were torn up but not 'black'. However<br />> the lighting wasn't very good (it was indoors and the drive was in a<br />> box) and based on their terminology I was looking for true black. I<br />> wouldn't have necessarily noted if they were 'blued' vs just dark<br />> grey. I do know they weren't a shiny metalic. So I honestly can't<br />> say if the gears themselves were 'blued' or not and the old drive<br />> has since been sent to the rebuilder.<br /><br />I respectfully suggest that the color of the gears is moot. The oil<br />was drastically too low, and the gears and bearings failed. This<br />sequence of events won't surprise anybody, except perhaps the folks<br />that slack-filled your sterndrive.<br /><br />You could ask Bombardier/OMC, but I'll predict their answer: "Running<br />the drive while low on oil is abuse, and voids all warranties." The<br />gears might turn blue, splay, break, or all or none of the above; all<br />bets are off when it's run dry.<br /><br />Your shop seems to be saying "it didn't fail exactly the way we<br />expected, therefore this couldn't be due to low oil." I'll bet any<br />technician with OMC expertise would be willing to refute this in<br />court.<br /><br />> I posted to what seems like a great forum at iboats .com (my<br />> specific post is linked below) and there is almost universal<br />> consensus that the damage was caused due to invcorrect filling of<br />> the gearcase. One mechanic (P.V.) listed how several variables<br />> would effect the timing until damage might occur from low gear oil.<br />> Another (seahorse) indicated that he has seen several cases where<br />> gears were ruined from low oil but without actual 'bluing' of the<br />> gears themselves.<br /><br />> http://www.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=008398 <br /><br />> The original shop owner still claims that the damage couldn't have<br />> been due to their mistake because of the timing and the symptoms of<br />> the gear failure.<br /><br />I respectfully disagree.<br /><br />> Even though I'm certain the shop trashed my gearset, I've offered to<br />> 'split' the cost to get it repaired. The owner has reduced his<br />> charges somewhat, but still wants over $1600 to fix the damage that<br />> I thnk they caused but that he thnks was unrelated to them returing<br />> the boat with low gear oil. The only positive thing at this point<br />> is that he did state that he's open to 'expert' input about the<br />> issue. I showed him the stuff you've put online and it's clear he<br />> recognizes and respects your expertise with respect to OMC Cobras.<br />> He indicated that he would be willing to listen to and consider your<br />> opinion about the incident.<br /><br />> Recognizing that you've not seen the drive and are obviously limited<br />> to the information described in this email I ask for the favour of<br />> your opinion: Given the circumstances I've described above (and<br />> especially considering the owners reasons he thinks the damage was<br />> unrelated to low gear oil) what do you think the odds are that my<br />> gears were damaged as a result of the shop's incorrectly filing the<br />> outdrive and leaving the gear oil low vs. something unrelated that<br />> just happened to go wrong at that exact point in time (it is a 15<br />> year old boat but with only 415 original hours on it)?<br /><br />My opinion? First, I'll aver that I am NOT an expert in anything.<br />I'm a computer guy with a shadetree-mechanic habit. Furthermore,<br />all of the sage advice on the website came from OMC; all I did<br />was put some OMC Service Bulletins onto the web.<br /><br />However, your sterndrive disaster passes the "duck test." It waddles,<br />it swims, it flies, it quacks: it's a duck. Your documentation is<br />thorough and convincing.<br /><br />For what it's worth (basically "moral support"), I agree with your<br />diagnosis.<br /><br />In my opinion, that shop ruined your sterndrive by<br />slack-filling it with oil, and they should fix it<br />at no cost to you.<br /><br />> I'm really not trying to put you in the difficult position of<br />> getting into the middle of this, and suspect you've received so many<br />> requests looking for additional technical advice beyond what you've<br />> posted online that there's a good chance you'll delete this before<br />> even reading it. But I'm hoping that the shop owner and I can draw<br />> on enough independent expertise to help us reach an agreement that<br />> keeps us out of small claims court, and unfortunately he recognizes<br />> you as the guru (and obviously as being independent) .<br /><br />I agree that I'm independent, but I'm am uncomfortable with the<br />"expert" label.<br /><br />> Thanks for any input you might provide.<br /><br />You're very welcome. I hope you can get that shop to make this right,<br />financially. Of course, you've already lost a great deal of time and<br />effort researching and documenting this... you'll never get back<br />your time. :-(<br /><br />> LakeLivin<br /><br />> p.s. congratulations on the documentation you put together on the<br />> Cobra outdrive. As someone who used to be responsible for compiling<br />> complex specifications for technical work in pharmaceutical<br />> development I probably appreciate it more than many. I'm of the<br />> opinion that done right, specification/ instruction/ documention can<br />> almost approach an art form!<br /><br />Well, most of it was cribbed from OMC itself. If you don't have a<br />genuine OMC Shop Manual for your drive, I respectfully suggest you buy<br />one. Ask Bombardier, or look on Ebay (search for "omc cobra"). I<br />also own copies of the Seloc and Clymer manuals for the Cobra, and I'm<br />unimpressed with both.<br /><br />I'm very sorry for your trouble. Regardless of the evident technical<br />merit of the Cobra, if nobody can be trusted to fix them, they become<br />worthless as sterndrives. :-(<br /><br />I wish you better luck with your Cobra,<br /><br />stuart hastings
<br />Kinda like having a Chrysler auto trans, different than most others, you check the level with it idling in neutral not park, and you have to use the ChryCo auto trans fluid (ATF+3/4 depending on the year), not like Ford and GM.
