outboard vs I/O

[Alpheus]

Re: outboard vs I/O

I replaced my engine, (completely rebuilt longblock), for less than $2500, including mistakes. Including a new prop, gimbal bearing, coil, starter, alternator, power steering pump etc, etc.

In all of your posts, I have not seen where you replaced your exhaust manifolds or risers. They must be replaced with a new engine and changed at regular intervals as well.

Dont bash on the OB people. I have rarely seen a post in the OB forum that is titled "Water in my oil", My block is cracked now what?" or "I have water leaking under my engine".

They both have there + or -. I have owned both, and no matter what I have at the time. The first thing I do is get a manual and I read it and I keep reading it until I understand it. With this practice you should never have a 500 dollar mistake...

 

[mnypitboat]

Re: outboard vs I/O

You know what. We get it already. You love your cheap I/O and all of us must be stupid for having outboards because they are so darn expensive to even change the spark plugs on.

WOW man chill out. All I am saying is that what I see out there is an abundance of used and new I?O parts, but never see any outboards or parts. You are right, my only experiance has been with my buddy and his poor experiance.

Someone mentioned risers and manifolds. Well in my aforementioned mistakes, I bought a couple complete engines, so I have a couple spares of everything.

That is all I am saying, and so far the examples of similar parts have been higher than what I can get parts for my engine. Maybe a lot of you guys are biased, as I admit I am a little, towards what you allready have too.

I am looking for a reason to stay on track with my origional plan to get outboard on my next boat. Getting pissed at me for making an arguement the other way isnt what I was after. I see lots of advantages to both, and was hoping someone could convince me completely that I am doing the right thing.

I have been around car engines, and i/o engines my whole life, since I could pick up a wrench to help nearly 35 years ago, so admittedly I am very familiar with them and outboards, quite frankly, scare the **** out of me.

You guys are right, had I gone into this completely blind, I probably would have just junked the boat.

Where are you guys finding good used outboards for cheap. Seems like whenever I see them around here they want thousands and thousands of dollars.

 

[Summer Fun]

Re: outboard vs I/O

I'll take my girls over any outboard.

In all of your posts, I have not seen where you replaced your exhaust manifolds or risers. They must be replaced with a new engine and changed at regular intervals as well.

NEVER if you're boating in FRESH WATERS ONLY !!.
Mine are going on 23yrs old and they have never been changed !!.

 

[superpop]

Re: outboard vs I/O

It would be interesting to see how both power plants compare as to cost of acquisition. Say, a 300HP I/O drive train vs a 300HP outboard.

 

[dingbat]

Re: outboard vs I/O

It would be interesting to see how both power plants compare as to cost of acquisition. Say, a 300HP I/O drive train vs a 300HP outboard.

Why bother? Does the lower cost of the Corvette somehow put it on par with a Ferrari or a Lamborghini?

Let's instead compare the horsepower to weight ratios?

 

[mnypitboat]

Re: outboard vs I/O

I'll take my girls over any outboard.
NEVER if you're boating in FRESH WATERS ONLY !!.
Mine are going on 23yrs old and they have never been changed !!.

Or if you have an enclosed cooling system, but as I said before, I got a couple extra sets when I bought the junk engine. I say junk, but it is a 350 magnum complete and then some. I probably have enough parts on it to make it worth rebuilding. I still have my origional Vortec 350 as well sitting on the floor.

Fact is that I am keeping my boat and the I/O is the best option for this particular boat, no matter what I decide for my next boat. I hope to have this for inland waters and playing on the river, and an offshore boat like a Grady White or Boston Whaler, or?? Probably leaning toward the GW due to the abundance of them with lower price tags. The issue I am finding is that most of the older GWs have I/Os in them.

I think my main objective in this thread was to get a feel for whether or not I should just skip the I/O GWs or if they would be an option. I guess I should have clarified earlier on. I wanted some healthy debate both ways. Pros, Cons, etc etc. So far the only cons to the I/O that I can see from those that have posted, are things that I can or have allready overcome.

 

[dingbat]

Re: outboard vs I/O

Fact is that I am keeping my boat and the I/O is the best option for this particular boat, no matter what I decide for my next boat. I hope to have this for inland waters and playing on the river, and an offshore boat like a Grady White or Boston Whaler, or?? Probably leaning toward the GW due to the abundance of them with lower price tags. The issue I am finding is that most of the older GWs have I/Os in them.

I think my main objective in this thread was to get a feel for whether or not I should just skip the I/O GWs or if they would be an option. I guess I should have clarified earlier on. I wanted some healthy debate both ways. Pros, Cons, etc etc. So far the only cons to the I/O that I can see from those that have posted, are things that I can or have allready overcome.

There is a reason why the I/O Grady's are so cheap and they stopped making them the I/O long ago.

 

[mnypitboat]

Re: outboard vs I/O

There is a reason why the I/O Grady's are so cheap and they stopped making them the I/O long ago.

What I am seeing is some really nice clean examples. Some are actually full inboards. You cant get a Whaler anywhere close to those prices. And I cant afford the prices they are asking for new 30ft GW WACs. I would love to pick one up with twin diesel inboards.

 

[109jb]

Re: outboard vs I/O

WOW man chill out. All I am saying is that what I see out there is an abundance of used and new I?O parts, but never see any outboards or parts. You are right, my only experiance has been with my buddy and his poor experiance.

That is simply because you don't have an outboard and aren't looking for parts or outboards. Here is an example of a few parts available.

A few parts

Someone mentioned risers and manifolds. Well in my aforementioned mistakes, I bought a couple complete engines, so I have a couple spares of everything.

That is all I am saying, and so far the examples of similar parts have been higher than what I can get parts for my engine. Maybe a lot of you guys are biased, as I admit I am a little, towards what you allready have too.

I am looking for a reason to stay on track with my origional plan to get outboard on my next boat. Getting pissed at me for making an arguement the other way isnt what I was after. I see lots of advantages to both, and was hoping someone could convince me completely that I am doing the right thing.

The ONLY thing I am pissed about is you claiming that your buddies experience and yours are somehow comparable. You obviously shopped around for good deals and places to get the work you had others do. Your buddy dropped his boat off and said fix it. Had your buddy done his homework like you did and maybe even done some of the work himself then there may be a comparison but he didn't. Bottom line is that you basically claimed that you could replace a complete I/O for less than an outboard and this is just not the case.

I have been around car engines, and i/o engines my whole life, since I could pick up a wrench to help nearly 35 years ago, so admittedly I am very familiar with them and outboards, quite frankly, scare the **** out of me.

You guys are right, had I gone into this completely blind, I probably would have just junked the boat.

Where are you guys finding good used outboards for cheap. Seems like whenever I see them around here they want thousands and thousands of dollars.

The cheapest used outboards usually come already attached to a boat. The boat is generally crap but the trailer can be sold and depending on the boat it may have a little value too. An example is my current outboard. I bought the boat motor and trailer for less than what the motor was worth. I actually bought it just for the motor with the intention of parting out the boat and selling the trailer, but after I got it home I decided to fix it up as a project boat.

If you want a complete remanufactured powerhead with a warranty you are looking at about $2000 for an inline 3 or 4 cylinder up to about $3000 for a 6 cylinder. Sure this is more than a rebuilt I/O engine by a healthy margin, but lets look at the drive. For example, a complete rebuilt bravo I from driveshaft to prop is $4000. For the outboard the lower unit IS everything from the driveshaft to the prop and it goes for $1700 brand new OEM or $1000 new aftermarket. These prices are from the same reputable supplier. I haven't seen any aftermarket manufactured mercruiser outdrives but they may be out there. This is an apples to apples comparison but of course everything is available used for either. So, some things cost more, some less.

My personal experience with outboards is that they do not cost a lot to maintain and keep running. My personal preference is for outboards but as I said there is nothing "wrong" with an I/O as can be shown by the thousands and thousands of them running around but performing an unfair comparison between I/O and outboard is, well unfair.

 

[mnypitboat]

Re: outboard vs I/O

That is simply because you don't have an outboard and aren't looking for parts or outboards. Here is an example of a few parts available.

A few parts



The ONLY thing I am pissed about is you claiming that your buddies experience and yours are somehow comparable. You obviously shopped around for good deals and places to get the work you had others do. Your buddy dropped his boat off and said fix it. Had your buddy done his homework like you did and maybe even done some of the work himself then there may be a comparison but he didn't. Bottom line is that you basically claimed that you could replace a complete I/O for less than an outboard and this is just not the case.



The cheapest used outboards usually come already attached to a boat. The boat is generally crap but the trailer can be sold and depending on the boat it may have a little value too. An example is my current outboard. I bought the boat motor and trailer for less than what the motor was worth. I actually bought it just for the motor with the intention of parting out the boat and selling the trailer, but after I got it home I decided to fix it up as a project boat.

If you want a complete remanufactured powerhead with a warranty you are looking at about $2000 for an inline 3 or 4 cylinder up to about $3000 for a 6 cylinder. Sure this is more than a rebuilt I/O engine by a healthy margin, but lets look at the drive. For example, a complete rebuilt bravo I from driveshaft to prop is $4000. For the outboard the lower unit IS everything from the driveshaft to the prop and it goes for $1700 brand new OEM or $1000 new aftermarket. These prices are from the same reputable supplier. I haven't seen any aftermarket manufactured mercruiser outdrives but they may be out there. This is an apples to apples comparison but of course everything is available used for either. So, some things cost more, some less.

My personal experience with outboards is that they do not cost a lot to maintain and keep running. My personal preference is for outboards but as I said there is nothing "wrong" with an I/O as can be shown by the thousands and thousands of them running around but performing an unfair comparison between I/O and outboard is, well unfair.

I dont have a Bravo, I have an Alpha and they are for sale all over for between $1000 and $1300 remaned.

It does look like the outboard is more expensive to fix when it goes bad. Do they go bad as often? Maybe not. I dont think I will shy away from either option, if the right deal comes along.

 

[109jb]

Re: outboard vs I/O

You are wrong and still not making apples to apples comparisons. I quoted prices for outdrives and lower units all from the same supplier to have a common overhead base and common build quality for comparison only. Throwing your alpha rebuild from some other supplier is not an apples to apples comparison. You have no way of knowing if the build qualities are comparable or if the other supplier has the same overhead or the same warranty. If you get the price for a complete alpha drive from thhe same supplier as the other prices I quoted you get $2600. This insures that the rebuild qualities are comparable and the overhead and warranty considerations are comparable. I can find rebuilt lower units for outboards much cheaper than I quoted but I used one supplier for an ACCURATE comparison. It seems that you do not understand what I am talking about when I say a fair accurate apples to apples comparison.

I'm done.

 

[Brewman61]

Re: outboard vs I/O

It would be interesting to see how both power plants compare as to cost of acquisition. Say, a 300HP I/O drive train vs a 300HP outboard.

I'm going to guess that a 300 HP outboard new would retail well into the $23,000+ price range. Based on reviews in boating magazines I've read.

I'd guess that a new I/O (engine and drive) in the same HP range would probably be multiple thousands less.

Perhaps the difference would be minimized if the typical O/B required less ongoing maintanance than the typical I/O.

I don't own any outboards, just my 4.3MPI Gen II. So I'm not sure how routine maintenance costs compare. I know what it takes to just inspect the bellows, gimble bearing and impeller. Plus the cost of lower unit lube, engine oil and filter, fuel filter, etc.... Not sure the equivalents on an O/B.

 

[mnypitboat]

Re: outboard vs I/O

You are wrong and still not making apples to apples comparisons. I quoted prices for outdrives and lower units all from the same supplier to have a common overhead base and common build quality for comparison only. Throwing your alpha rebuild from some other supplier is not an apples to apples comparison. You have no way of knowing if the build qualities are comparable or if the other supplier has the same overhead or the same warranty. If you get the price for a complete alpha drive from thhe same supplier as the other prices I quoted you get $2600. This insures that the rebuild qualities are comparable and the overhead and warranty considerations are comparable. I can find rebuilt lower units for outboards much cheaper than I quoted but I used one supplier for an ACCURATE comparison. It seems that you do not understand what I am talking about when I say a fair accurate apples to apples comparison.

I'm done.

To be completely blunt, it is you that are the one that is not being open to any options. It is obvious that you will never even consider an I/O, on the other hand, I am open to both options. Your attitude is not what I am looking for when I started this whole thing. I wanted real ideas and real pros and cons on both ends, your outboard is the only option, attitude isnt really what I was looking for.

Yes, my direct comparison of my experiance to my buddy's experiance is apples to oranges, but I only threw that out there as a conversation starter to get some real world comparisons and pros and cons. Not your, I/Os are cheap and outboards are God attitude.

The fact that I have found discount suppliers for the I/O option and cannot find any outboard discount suppliers is yet another example of what I have been saying all along. Your prices, no matter what overhead or any other reason, completely solidifies that. There simply do not appear to be as many parts, or suppiers out there for the average person on a budget like me. Yep, comparing parts I was able to scrounge together to get mine running with nearly new everything, to your "quality supplier", which you did not tell us who it was, is not apples to apples, however, when it comes to outboards, there does not seem to be quite as many options out there for "scrounging". It looks to me like its a buy from a "quality"(or expensive) supplier or nothing. I am keeping my eye out for an Alpha outdrive right now, because despite my good experiance with them, I keep getting told they are not strong enough for the 350. I have found about a dozen within driving distance for less than $500. That is real world, can I afford it on my wife's budget, numbers.

I am open to both options, but I also know that if I have outboards, that I am getting into a whole new realm of problems and parts issues and the abundancy of parts is not as large as for a simple "car engine" with an outdrive attatched. The proof is when I do a Clist search for Mercruiser 350, or alpha, I get a ton of hits, when I do a search for outboard, I get much less, and half of them are on boats, and the other half are scattered between differant manufacturers and types and sizes of outboard. There simply isnt as many out there.

The reason is probably simple too, they just dont break and people end up fixing or keeping rather than parting out, and are attatched to boats that are worth enough to be worth fixing, but the fact remains that there arent as many "scrounge" parts available.

 

[mnypitboat]

Re: outboard vs I/O

Oh and I do search the local Clists under boats on a daily, almost an hourly basis. I have my computer on 24-7 for work and that is a window that almost never closes, so I could probably tell you off the top of my head what is available in this area at any given time.

 

[mnypitboat]

Re: outboard vs I/O

I'm going to guess that a 300 HP outboard new would retail well into the $23,000+ price range. Based on reviews in boating magazines I've read.

I'd guess that a new I/O (engine and drive) in the same HP range would probably be multiple thousands less.

Perhaps the difference would be minimized if the typical O/B required less ongoing maintanance than the typical I/O.

I don't own any outboards, just my 4.3MPI Gen II. So I'm not sure how routine maintenance costs compare. I know what it takes to just inspect the bellows, gimble bearing and impeller. Plus the cost of lower unit lube, engine oil and filter, fuel filter, etc.... Not sure the equivalents on an O/B.

I bet cost of acquisition, comparing new to new, assuming a bare hull to start with, the I/O is probably way up there too. Remember, you have to buy engine, bellhousing, risers, gimbal housing, outdrives, etc etc etc. It isnt just the engine and outdrive at that point, whereas that $23000 outboard is a ready to bolt on unit. Pretty much everything attatched and ready to go, other than controls, but you need them on an I/O too. I dont have over $20k to plop down for new ones anyway.

As far as maintainance, I can go out there right now and within 2 hours, have all fluids changed, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, filters. Maybe not the impeller due to Mercruiser hiding them in the outdrive, and that impeller and the bellows are not done every season anyway.

 

[45Auto]

Re: outboard vs I/O

You can easily get a brand new, ready-to-bolt-on, 300 HP engine/sterndrive package for less than $13,000, a complete 425 HP, 496HO with a Bravo X sterndrive is about $24,000:

http://www.marinepowerservice.com/B...392/parent_cat2/450396/parent_cat3/450419.cfm

Last sticker price I saw on a Yamaha 350 outboard was $27,905.

 

[skargo]

Re: outboard vs I/O

These threads are always so entertaining, and always show the positive sides of the posters within...

 

[Brewman61]

Re: outboard vs I/O

You can easily get a brand new, ready-to-bolt-on, 300 HP engine/sterndrive package for less than $13,000, a complete 425 HP, 496HO with a Bravo X sterndrive is about $24,000:

http://www.marinepowerservice.com/B...392/parent_cat2/450396/parent_cat3/450419.cfm

Last sticker price I saw on a Yamaha 350 outboard was $27,905.

That's about what I recalled as well. Not to put too fine of a point on it.

And I'm not making a statement that one is better or worse than the other, just answering (to the best of my ability) the question posed on acquisition cost. Of course that's only one aspect.

Nothing like a good ol' "Chevy vs Ford" debate to get the fur flying, eh?

 

[25thmustang]

Re: outboard vs I/O

I have seen more I/O boats out of the water for service, than I have I/B or O/B boats... I don't hold much faith in what that says, other than every singe time an I/O boat is out, the outdrive comes off and the owner is complaining about $$.

 

[109jb]

Re: outboard vs I/O

To be completely blunt, all I have done is point out the faults in your comparisons. You can't compare bubba's prices working nights out of his garage to a small rebuiler to a large remanufacturer. You have to have a common base comparison. In airplane circles this would be like comparing an engine overhaul done in the field by a mechanic to a major ovehaul shop like Mattituck to a factory re-manufactured engine from the original engine manufacturer. These are not equal and neither is a cost comparison of boat drives this way. That is why all of my pricing was from one supplier source.

As far as finding discount parts, I'll give an outboard example. I recently had the lower unit come apart on my 115 hp Mariner outboard. The time from the failure to being back on the water with a rebuilt lower unit was less than 24 hours and $300. The lower unit was 20 miles away from me and the guy had several outboard lower units to compplete outboards of various models for sale. This was bubba working out of his garage and I could have thrown his prices in to compare but it would not have been fair and is why I didn't post this example. Notice how I said this unit was rebuilt, not remanufactured. There is a difference and not knowing what supplier A considers reman compared to supplier B makes a comparison between the two unfair without knowing..

As for I/O's , actually I am looking for an I/O right now because it will work better in some ways with the family and my handicapped son. My father also has an I/O right now and it is a fine boat. I am not saying the I/O costs more or less I am saying your comparisons are not correct and I stand by that. You finally admitted this in post #33 when you said, ?Yes, my direct comparison of my experiance to my buddy's experiance is apples to oranges??

As for cost comparison of new to new, that is not how you started this thread. You started comparing repair to repair in an unfair manner. I will agree that you can buy a brand new complete I/O cheaper than a brand new complete outboard but that was not what you have been asking until now. I still say that the repair costs are comparable between the 2 with some things costing more and some less.

As far as the GW?s with I/O?s, if that was your real question then just ask it. As far as I am concerned an I/O GW would be fine and if I/O?s are what you are comfortable with then why not??