Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

[jmw129]

I have pulled my engine down to the block due to over heating while in idle. When I pulled the heads each cylinder has water in the bore / sitting on the piston.

Bore walls are smooth and no rust. What would cause my engine to have water in every cylinder / piston?

Some pistons had water as high as 3 inches deep.

Wait, forget to mention that almost every head bolt on the outside poured out water either alot or small amount except for 2 bolts maybe 3 bolts.

The heads when I removed the valve covers also had water mixed in with the oil giving the color of a "Light Brown" mix shake or "Oil & Water Mix" color?

Thanks.

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

Well, it sounds like you did not drain the engine block before you took off the cylinder heads. The head bolts go straight into the water jackets of the engine block. If you remove the heads before draining the block, water goes everywhere. So, it would seem uncertain that water was inside the cylinder before you removed the heads.

What particular Mercruiser engine are we talking about?

As far as the milkshake oil . . . that would need further investigation, but your sources are intake manifold, cylinder heads (crack), head gasket, engine block (crack). you will have to examine these things to see what you can find.

Was the engine able to run prior to the tear-down? If so, then probably little/no water would be in the cylinders.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

What particular Mercruiser engine are we talking about?

305 Mercruiser, 230hp, 1985.

Ayuh,... readin' his older posts, he's got a Beat 305...

 

[jmw129]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

Ayuh,... readin' his older posts, he's got a Beat 305...

Bond-o you are correct!

I don't know the history of this engine. I was trying to see what the possible cause is the over heating while in idle. I do know from tear down that one exhaust manifold gasket was junk, the intake manifold has also been removed before as the person who did the work used black permatex gasket maker / sealer.

I didn't take the plug out before tear down so that could explain why all cylinders had water on them.

I assume when you say "Beat" that the engine is junk or not taken care of?

 

[jmw129]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

Well, it sounds like you did not drain the engine block before you took off the cylinder heads. The head bolts go straight into the water jackets of the engine block. If you remove the heads before draining the block, water goes everywhere. So, it would seem uncertain that water was inside the cylinder before you removed the heads.

What particular Mercruiser engine are we talking about?

As far as the milkshake oil . . . that would need further investigation, but your sources are intake manifold, cylinder heads (crack), head gasket, engine block (crack). you will have to examine these things to see what you can find.

Was the engine able to run prior to the tear-down? If so, then probably little/no water would be in the cylinders.

Engine is 1985 305. I didn't take out the plug on the block before tear down.

I believe you were doing a partial re-build on your block and seen pic's of you cleaning out the water jackets in your block?

The engine was running fairly well but would over heat in idle.

I replaced the impeller, t-stat, checked the water pump on the engine, and still over heating in idle.

I believe the block has been patched prior to my ownership. The surface of the block on the driver side is really bumpy in a 3-5 inch area.

My mechanic this spring told me he thinks maybe one or the water jackets were patched / closed shut causing the idle over heat.

I'm hoping he is wrong but probably not.

Can a hair line crack inside the block cause the engine to over heat in idle?

 

[Bt Doctur]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

I see no mention if the water feed hose, water pocket cover, PS cooler. Black Permatex is the correct item when servicing intake manifolds now.
clogged manifolds, clogged riser/elbows

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

btdoctur is on the right track, especially with the exhaust riser/elbows recommendation.

But it sounds like you have SEVERAL issues with this engine. Prior repair of a cracked block is a dicey proposition to say the least.

 

[jmw129]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

I see no mention if the water feed hose, water pocket cover, PS cooler. Black Permatex is the correct item when servicing intake manifolds now.
clogged manifolds, clogged riser/elbows

How can I tell if the manifolds, riser elbows are clogged?

 

[jmw129]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

btdoctur is on the right track, especially with the exhaust riser/elbows recommendation.

But it sounds like you have SEVERAL issues with this engine. Prior repair of a cracked block is a dicey proposition to say the least.

TilliamWe,

You mentioned that I may have several issues, do you have any recommendations for a cure?

I'm bucking having to replace the block but deep down I have a feeling that it's on the list for repair.

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

JMW - Have you got any pictures that you can post?

 

[jmw129]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

JMW - Have you got any pictures that you can post?

I try but iboats says the file is too large.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

How can I tell if the manifolds, riser elbows are clogged?

Take them off an look inside them. If they are all rusted up, or have streaks of rust where there should only have been exhaust gas, then they are leaking internally, and are junk.

I think when this is all said and done, you are going to need a new engine, my friend. Unless the prior repair to the block is holding, and it's JUST the exhaust manifolds letting water in the engine.

 

[wingless]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

Black Permatex is the correct item when servicing intake manifolds now.

+1 for using the correct materials and the correct procedure.

My FSM specifies usage of Perfect Seal, so I used that chemical.

 

[jmw129]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

Take them off an look inside them. If they are all rusted up, or have streaks of rust where there should only have been exhaust gas, then they are leaking internally, and are junk.

I think when this is all said and done, you are going to need a new engine, my friend. Unless the prior repair to the block is holding, and it's JUST the exhaust manifolds letting water in the engine.

When you say exhaust gas, you mean through the ports correct?

 

[jmw129]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

Take them off an look inside them. If they are all rusted up, or have streaks of rust where there should only have been exhaust gas, then they are leaking internally, and are junk.

I think when this is all said and done, you are going to need a new engine, my friend. Unless the prior repair to the block is holding, and it's JUST the exhaust manifolds letting water in the engine.

I looked inside the exhaust manifold & elbow. All I see is black carbon build-up from the exhaust. Maybe a tiny little speck of rust but mainly I would say 97% to 99% covered with carbon from what I could see looking down in.

In regards to needing a new engine, deep down I think you're right. Sucks but the sooner I come to terms the better off I'll be.

 

[Ragnarokii]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

Been there with a 305...have a rebuilt one I'm just about to install. All good advice above...do check your flapper valves...I had one a couple of years ago that was half-gone, and would fill the exhaust manifold with water whenever I was "parked" and waves would splash up against the transom. This of course would fill whatever cylinders had open exhaust valves with water. Same thing would happen when I would trailer the boat, because of the wave action at the launch. Intermittent hydrolock sucks.

If you need to replace the 305...get a 350. They are cheaper, easier to find, bring a bit more power to the party, and the parts are mostly interchangeable.

 

[jmw129]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

Been there with a 305...have a rebuilt one I'm just about to install. All good advice above...do check your flapper valves...I had one a couple of years ago that was half-gone, and would fill the exhaust manifold with water whenever I was "parked" and waves would splash up against the transom. This of course would fill whatever cylinders had open exhaust valves with water. Same thing would happen when I would trailer the boat, because of the wave action at the launch. Intermittent hydrolock sucks.

If you need to replace the 305...get a 350. They are cheaper, easier to find, bring a bit more power to the party, and the parts are mostly interchangeable.

Amen! I agree.

Here is the update everyone.. 1st of all I want to say that Bondo-o was right about my 305. He said my 305 is beat and is right on with that statement.

tpenfield made a comment about block freeze damage which was right on. I'll explain more here in a bit.

TilliamWe also was right on about the engine and everyone has offered very good suggestions, and so on.

Very helpful post.

Now here is the scoop! upon further inspection my marine mechanic was right as one of my water jackets are packed full of some type of block patch. Say it generally speaking since I've seen / heard about 3 different products that have given good results. I haven't actually used any of these but was going to use Lab Metal if the block was able to be saved.

Here is the link for Lab Metal: http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?id=2

Now as I continued to examine the block, on the front passenger side on the 1st piston under the push rod I saw 1.5 to 2 inch hairline crack. Well half of the crack I could rub my finger over and feel the height difference in the split versus the normal smooth block material.

Ok still more, as I inspected the side I call driver side, on the front cylinder almost identical spot just opposite side of the first internal crack that you cannot see unless you remove the intake manifold, was another crack probably 1 inch long but the split in metal wasn't as bad.

Luckily I had a guy there buying heads off my other engine (long story) and he inspected the block and told me the block was not worth trusting. He felt the block would either give out on the outside patch on the block or the internal fractures would expand and give out more.

The good news I think??

I came across a guy selling a 350 Vortec Complete with less than 100 hr's and claims the engine puts out close to 300hp. Is that true?

He owns a machine shop and has a block but needs all of my external components for a 305 he wants to finish for a different boat.

So he has agreed to run the 350 Vortec in the actual boat before pulling it out and has also agreed to a cash plus top parts off of my 305 so he can build-up a 305 block now at his shop for a different boat.

So the cash amount is $1,350 I give him plus all of my 305 parts..... Seem fair? Good deal if he's being honest??

The engine I would be receiving is a drop in, ready to go engine he claims..

 

[Ragnarokii]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

With what you describe, I'd definitely agree that it's time for a new engine. Cracks like that don't just go away.

A 350 Vortec, stock, puts out about 255 to 270 HP, depending on carb/fuel injection. If that's close to 300, then you are good. If he's done other work to it, it could easily get there. I do have a couple of things for you to think about:

- Is this built as a boat motor? If not, I wouldn't do it. Carb will be wrong, starter will be wrong, camshaft will be wrong, freeze plugs will be wrong; best case, it won't run that well and will wear out fast. Worst case the whole thing blows up. I know guys that do it (put auto engines in boats) and claim there aren't any problems. I just wouldn't do it myself.

- If it is a boat motor, with 100 hours on it, the price/trade seems fair. A new marine short block would run more like $1,800 to $2,500 depending on where you get it, and shipping. Throw in all the extras (gaskets, water pump, alternator rebuild, head rebuilds, etc) and you can get to $3k pretty easily. There just aren't that many good, used boat motors around, waiting to be dropped into a boat, primarily because of freeze damage.

- If you are doing the install, be sure to check for electrical compatability (do the plugs match). If this new engine has EFI, this could be a big deal. Take a really hard look at the new engine, compared to the old engine...if they are pretty comparable, then it could be a simple drop in. If pumps are in the wrong places, (or don't exist), it's more hassle. Make sure the outdrive connections are correct. The 305/350 came in two version, a 12 3/4 inch flywheel and a 14 inch flywheel. The old (two piece main seal) flywheels have a larger hole in the center, the new (one piece main) type (which is what the vortec probably is) has a smaller hole. My point is to make sure the outdrive will mate properly with the new engine's flywheel.

-I love the vortec heads. They are much better breathers than the older style.

- Once I had the vortec engine installed in my boat, I really wouldn't care what he took off the old engine as a part of the trade. Less for me to mess with on Craigs List. Just be sure you don't get stuck having to buy exhaust manifolds or some other part because you traded it away.

- And of course be sure to check out compression and leak down and for water in the oil, as well as a vaccum test to be sure what he is selling you is a sound engine. Trust and verify.

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

Check out the SAE J1171 standards for electrical and ignition systems. As noted above, marine engines differ from automotive engines in terms of fuel delivery (fuel pump, carb, etc) and electrical (starter, alternator, distributor, etc) for safety reasons. Generally the marine engines do not have as much valve overlap in the cam so as to prevent 'reversion' in the exhaust/cooling system.

There have been a few posted lately about boats that have exploded/caught fire due to ignition of fuel vapors in the engine/fuel compartments.

So, if the mechanic is up to speed on the needs for a marine engine, then you might be back in business. Hopefully this will work out for you.

I think you set a 'land speed record' for diagnosing a potentially tricky engine problem . . . nice work.

 

[jmw129]

Re: Piston Cylinders All Have Water In Them?

With what you describe, I'd definitely agree that it's time for a new engine. Cracks like that don't just go away.

A 350 Vortec, stock, puts out about 255 to 270 HP, depending on carb/fuel injection. If that's close to 300, then you are good. If he's done other work to it, it could easily get there. I do have a couple of things for you to think about:

- Is this built as a boat motor? If not, I wouldn't do it. Carb will be wrong, starter will be wrong, camshaft will be wrong, freeze plugs will be wrong; best case, it won't run that well and will wear out fast. Worst case the whole thing blows up. I know guys that do it (put auto engines in boats) and claim there aren't any problems. I just wouldn't do it myself.

- If it is a boat motor, with 100 hours on it, the price/trade seems fair. A new marine short block would run more like $1,800 to $2,500 depending on where you get it, and shipping. Throw in all the extras (gaskets, water pump, alternator rebuild, head rebuilds, etc) and you can get to $3k pretty easily. There just aren't that many good, used boat motors around, waiting to be dropped into a boat, primarily because of freeze damage.

- If you are doing the install, be sure to check for electrical compatability (do the plugs match). If this new engine has EFI, this could be a big deal. Take a really hard look at the new engine, compared to the old engine...if they are pretty comparable, then it could be a simple drop in. If pumps are in the wrong places, (or don't exist), it's more hassle. Make sure the outdrive connections are correct. The 305/350 came in two version, a 12 3/4 inch flywheel and a 14 inch flywheel. The old (two piece main seal) flywheels have a larger hole in the center, the new (one piece main) type (which is what the vortec probably is) has a smaller hole. My point is to make sure the outdrive will mate properly with the new engine's flywheel.

-I love the vortec heads. They are much better breathers than the older style.

- Once I had the vortec engine installed in my boat, I really wouldn't care what he took off the old engine as a part of the trade. Less for me to mess with on Craigs List. Just be sure you don't get stuck having to buy exhaust manifolds or some other part because you traded it away.

- And of course be sure to check out compression and leak down and for water in the oil, as well as a vaccum test to be sure what he is selling you is a sound engine. Trust and verify.

Thank you! I just text the selling to confirm the engine is all marine not car parts waiting to blow it in a boat.

Last night when I spoke with him, he told me the engine is in a 1988 boat / alpha set-up.

So there is a possibility the outdrive will not fit correctly into the coupler / bell housing?