Pitch problems

spetroff

Cadet
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
16
Hello,

I'm in the process of selecting a new prop, and have run up against a strange problem. The original prop was a 21" pitch and had no hole shot. The boat is a 2003 Silverline 1705, with a 3.0l Mercruiser Alpha One. Since the RPM's at WOT only read 3800, it seemed like a no-brainer to drop to 19". I bought a really cheap used prop at 19" to test out, but it cavitated badly and the engine never revved any higher. I ignored this reading and bought a new 19" 4 blade Turning Point (TP says their 4 blades should be chosen with the same pitch as a 3 blade). The hole shot with this prop is better, but still not good at all. According to the speedo, I've dropped 5 mph from 42 to 37 mph (frankly both those numbers seem overstated). The thing is though, the engine is still only revving at 3800 RPM's at WOT. It's a brand new tach too, same tach as originally spec'd for the boat. I guess I could buy a TinyTach or comparable to verify that the tach is working correctly. Could the engine have a governor on it? If so, what would it look like? Any other ideas why it isn't revving higher with the shorter prop? By the numbers, I shouldn't drop much further than 19", but it's pretty damn expensive to just try a 17" out to see if it runs higher (plus I really don't want to go much slower). Any other suggestions? Thanks

Shane
 

fishrdan

Admiral
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
6,989
Re: Pitch problems

Something doesn't make sense as those numbers show a negative slip.

A 2.0 ratio drive, 21P prop running 42MPH at 3800RPM shows a -11% slip.
A 2.0 ratio drive, 19P prop running 37MPH at 3800RPM shows a -8% slip.

Punch in the numbers with a 1.65 ratio drive the slip is more realistic.

A 1.65 ratio drive, 21P prop running 42MPH at 3800RPM shows a 8% slip.
A 1.65 ratio drive, 19P prop running 37MPH at 3800RPM shows a 11% slip.

Check the drive ratio. If it's a 2.0 ratio (which it should be) check the tach and speedo as something in the numbers is off. Were the speed numbers off the speedo or GPS?
 

steelespike

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 26, 2002
Messages
19,069
Re: Pitch problems

If the 42 is accurate using 2.00 ratio 21" we may have a tach that is set wrong. 42 is a pretty normal speed for a 17' with a 3.0.
using 4600 rpm at 42 mph you get about 8% slip pretty normal.
using 4600, 19" with 8% slip speed is about 38.
Also the 21 might produce slow hole shot.
No hole shot isn't very descriptive. It must have a measurable hole shot or it wouldn't plane.
 

spetroff

Cadet
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
16
Re: Pitch problems

I don't have a GPS to get an accurate speed reading, The only real take away from the speed numbers is the 5mph difference (since high and low readings both have the same bias, the difference should be reasonably accurate). I didn't bother calculating slip because I knew my speed readings were suspect. That said, a negative slip is obviously not happening! :) Where do I check the drive ratio? (I bought the boat second hand, so anything is possible) I'm 99% certain that the new tach is set the same way as the original tach, but since I still have both, I can check that this weekend. I guess I'll invest in a tiny tach to double check that accuracy (maybe I can borrow someone's GPS to test the speed accuracy too). The thing that bothers me the most though is that 2 19" pitch props both show the same 3800rpm reading that the 21" shows. Assuming that the tach is set incorrectly and the engine is revving higher than 3800, the 2 pitches should still show up differently, shouldn't they?
 

spdracr39

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
1,238
Re: Pitch problems

Not necessarily. If the blade geometry is different on the two props ( cupping or rake for example) the rpms might not change. You might want to identify the brand and model of the props you have and do a little research on the design. Also the previous owner of the prop might have had a shop modify the blades or repair them incorrectly.
 

steelespike

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 26, 2002
Messages
19,069
Re: Pitch problems

The 3800 from the tach may not be from the input from the actual rpm.
sometimes the ratio is stamped on the outdrive or perhaps a decal.
Typically newer 3.0s are something like 1.94 ? or 2.00.
I look up engine specs and ratio on the piranha site.
 

jopes

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
288
Re: Pitch problems

Are you hitting a wall @ 3800? like 3/4 throttle then going to full there is not RPM difference on the tach but the engine keeps reving higher?

Does it sound like 3800 rpms or does it sound like it is screaming past 5000 rpms?

are you the original owner of the boat and has it been this way the whole time?
 

spetroff

Cadet
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
16
Re: Pitch problems

The 21" is a rebuild, so it is possible that it's been done incorrectly. The two 19's though are stock and the current Turning Point Hustler 4 blade is brand new, so it's characteristics should be unchanged. I will check out the drive ratio this weekend. Insofar as the 'wall' at 3800, the engine behaves and sounds as one would expect. That is, it accelerates evenly up to WOT and is not 'screaming' at that point (although I'm not exactly sure how I'd be able to tell how much might be left - I haven't listened to anywhere near enough of them to tell). I've ordered a little inductive tach, so I can confirm the actual rpm's, but it won't arrive this weekend.
 

fishrdan

Admiral
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
6,989
Re: Pitch problems

3800 RPM WOT, with 3 different props is weird. Unless they are all putting the same load on the engine as someone else suggested earlier, though that would be weird too. When I rebuilt my engine I couldn't get over 4200RPM, tired 3 different props, 15.5x19, 14.5x19, 15.75x17 with the same 4200 RPM, it just seemed doggy. I worked on the engine tune a bit and put on a 14.5x18P 4 blade which made a huge improvement, 4500-4600WOT RPM which was prefect. I'm sure prop was a part of it, but I'm sure the engine wasn't performing 100% either. Just saying it's possible you could have an engine performance issue, might need a tune-up.

If you have a smart phone you can download a GPS speedo app, the one I have is UlysseSpeed. I like it as it records top speed, you don't have to keep your eyes on it.

I agree with SS that the boat's speed seems right, 42MPH with a 21P and 37MPH with a 19P, that sounds about right for a 3.0 in a 17'er, not out of the ordinary.
 

spetroff

Cadet
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
16
Re: Pitch problems

The weather turned on me, so I only got a chance to measure the 19" again, but this time I had a Garmin Rino 130 GPS, which clocked the boat at 33.3mph. The tach was reading just a hair over 3800, and the sticker on the outdrive does indeed say it has a 2:1 gear ratio. Using the calculator at go-fast, that puts me at 2% slip, which seems quite unlikely/virtually impossible under real conditions. The only real thing left to confirm is the tach reading (haven't got the inductive tach yet). The 19" 4 blade gave me what I'd call minimally acceptable performance for water sports, but my oldest is only 12, so the load is going to get much worse than it is now. With two 12 year olds on a tube, she can't rev beyond 3000rpm and runs at about 28mph (speedo) so apparently near zero slip again. Maybe it is just the engine tuning. It runs beautifully though, starts right away, idles nicely at about 800rpm, consistent power (albeit not very much); you'd think that if it was just an engine problem, that it wouldn't run so well.
 

fishrdan

Admiral
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
6,989
Re: Pitch problems

How many people are on the boat and what is the total load, people, gear, coolers, etc.?

The 3.0 isn't a stump puller, so going down in prop pitch is common for watersports, 16p or 17P, maybe even a 15P. It really depends on what the engine's WOT RPM is. (I still find it weird the engine maxes out at 3800 with all props...)
 

spetroff

Cadet
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
16
Re: Pitch problems

I guess I should have noted it before, all measurements were taken with me alone in the boat with a half tank of gas and no cargo, apart from paddles and life jackets. That should equate to roughly 300 lbs. Both times it was calm with little to no wind. I still haven't got my inductive tach yet, so no way to confirm the actual rpm readings. I guess the next step is a mechanic, since it's already running as well as I could ever hope to tune it. I guess I could do a little trial and error on the carb settings. I'll pull the plugs and have a look for any fouling. I figure it can't be electronic or it wouldn't run properly (unless there is a governor on it somewhere). Compression on all cylinders is good, so all I can think of is fuel. I guess I can try to round up a used 17" prop, but I'm not that anxious to drop any more speed: 33-5=28mph, which means even the kids would need to be pulled at WOT now, never mind later on. Thanks for your replies so far!
 

fishrdan

Admiral
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
6,989
Re: Pitch problems

How old is the fuel and are the carb's throttle plates opening all the way? Have you checked the timing, and if spark is advancing all the way? You should have and EST distributor which requires a specific timing procedure, check the I/O forum for the timing procedure, and a link to "the" manual.

Decreasing pitch could actually increase speed as the engine "might" turn more RPM (it actually should turn more RPM, but with the engine hitting the 3800RPM wall...). I picked up a couple MPH when I swapped from a 19P to an 18P, also picked up 400 RPM WOT.
 

spetroff

Cadet
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
16
Re: Pitch problems

The fuel is new (I've got nothing against the theory of storing with a full tank, I've just been siphoned one time too many to do it again). Both the choke plate and throttle plates seem to be functioning fine on the carb and there is no serious plug fouling. That said, she did hesitate badly on me during one outing. For the time being, I'm going to assume that it is an engine problem that can get dealt with in the fall. My Dad gave away his timing light and dwell meter (I'm surprised anything uses them anymore), so for all intents an purposes, the problem is beyond my ability to deal with it anyway. Thanks for the help.
 

spetroff

Cadet
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
16
Re: Pitch problems

One last response because it now warrants a new thread. I took it in and had it 'tuned up' including a carb kit, and now the performance is even worse... The low end is so poor she has a hard time getting on plane with one person in the boat. I was so deflated, I didn't even bother to hook up the inductive tach.
 

steelespike

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 26, 2002
Messages
19,069
Re: Pitch problems

Boy thats a shame.They must have messed up something.Maybe a plug wire fell off
I would suspect the carb as well.Maybe they messed up the throttle linkage.
 
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