Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

[steviecops]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

rwise, thanks for the input.<br /><br />What should I be looking for with this cable? And how could the current be going back through the cable? What is the possible result of this happening?<br /><br />Thanks in advance<br />Steve

 

[rwise]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

look for loose, dirty, coroded, connections. the battery cable its self may be coroded internally. I had one on a project boat from 1958 the first time I tried to turn it over with the starter went fine, the second time it would only click! Pulled on the cable and it busted into 2 peices. DC can do strange things if there is a path it will find it. it will also crystalize magnetic metals such as steering cables etc. not at all a good thing. but from what I am reading here worth while to check out!<br />Richard, lunch time is over gota go

 

[steviecops]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Cheers Richard<br />I'll chase the cables from end to end tomorrow to make sure they are not defective or arcing out anywhere.<br /><br />So you think that the negative cable may be making contact with my gear shift cable somewhere along the line? Worth a look I suppose. The problem is a complete mystery to me, so I'll try anything.<br /><br />Anyone got any other ideas what could be making my control box jam when I crank the engine, and why this is stopping my engine from starting?

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Remove shift cable from the engine. Shift it by hand at the motor and see if there is any binding(While someone turns the prop for you). Also, see if the control operates properly with the cable disconnected at the motor. If not, could be defective cable causing it to hang up. Neutral safety switch not allowing start because of out of sync control. If it is smooth and the cable moves in and out freely, you may have a problem with the lower unit(driveshaft locking up motor intermittently).As for the shifter control, if the lower unit is binding, so will your control. Same with the cable binding inside the sheath. Could also be something as simple as a misadjusted cable. Could also be a bad control unit. It happens! This still does not explain the starting problem when you have spark and it does turn over. Has to be a fuel problem there. Sounds like you have 2 different problems working against you. Figure out one at a time...

 

[steviecops]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Thanks Rick<br />I'll be checking all the cables tomorrow.<br /><br />What puzzles me the most is that I can move the gear shift easily in and out of gear before attempting to start the engine, but as soon as I crank the engine, the control box/gear lever seems to jam up.<br /><br />But even with the control box jammed up, I'm still getting a spark. Someone earlier said that without the throttle flapper raised, I won't be getting any fuel into the crank case no matter how much I choke it. The thing is, I can raise the throttle flapper, even with the gear shift lever jammed.<br /><br />So it seems that lifting the throttle flapper is doing something to the gear shift cable, but not allowing fuel to get through to the crank case. But why does it only happen when I crank the engine? As I said before, I can do what I like with the throttle flapper and gear shift lever before attempting to start the engine, and everything continues to work fine. Something is going wrong when I crank the engine.<br /><br />It may be something really simple and it may be staring me in the face, but I just can't see it.<br /><br />Thanks again<br />Steve

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Look in the carb throat and make sure the throttle flap is actually open and that your choke is actually closing while someone operates the fast idle lever and choke switch. The throtle flap will open very little, so keep a close eye on it. The fast idle lever has nothing to do with the gear shift ability, unless the control is messed up. Even then, I doubt it would affect it.

 

[SCO]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

I'm with rick on all this, sounds like the box is in neutral and the actual motor shift is in gear, on the edge, so sometimes works. Id unhook gear cable at engine, find center of neutral on motor manually[edit: actually, find the center of motor neutral manually before unhooking cable. Move lever fwd and back to find exact motor neutral center(check by trial and error turns of prop while you move shifter) ,mark the position of the motor shift neutral on the motor, disconnect cable] ,put box shifter to neutral, then adj cable lengths so box neutral is motor neutral. Same kind of mis adjustment can keep throttle closed even with lever up. Find the throttle flapper linkage on the carb, and make sure it opens some when you move the lever up. You might check for spark if it is not starting(pull a plug wire and see if it arcs from a nail to block during crank...dont hand hold it...) If no spark, then look at the neutral start switch on the motor. If spark, look at throttle flapper closely. Recall there is probably a neutral safety switch in the box and another redundantly on the motor. MAybe there is nothing wrong with the coil..sounds unlikely that it is the cause of this intermiittent start. Again, sory for the bad ignition component replacement advice earlier. The melted coil symptom caused me to jump to the conclusion that that was the problem, and to cure cause of meltdown, safest course of action seemed to be to replace all.<br /><br /> Don't think this will solve the problem or you'll get frustrated. Lets just confirm proper cable setup then move on to next step if no cure.

 

[SCO]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

I spent an inordinate amt of time on my boat getting it to start right. Many rabbit trails. Turned out that the throttle cable was adjusted too long, and "spring loaded" against the closed throttle stop. I would lift the lever, but the actual throttle flapper in the carb was barely opening...s no fuel was getting to the engine no mater how much I choked it.<br /><br />Looked at the manual, a safety switch is not shown on the schematic on the engine, so there is probably only one neutral start switch ...in the control box. The rectifer will be a silverish quarter sized cylinder with a triangular base. Thats a good, simple schematic, I need one of those 2 cylinder motors.

 

[steviecops]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Rick and SCO.<br /><br />Heres an update. First of all, I now believe that the control box and starting problems are not connected. I found that after cranking the engine, it was pot luck whether I was able to engage forward gear, depending where the drive shaft ended up. If it wouldn't shift into gear, a quarter turn on the fly wheel soon freed everything up again. I take it that this is normal, a bit like trying to engage first gear in your car with the engine off and clutch not engaged.<br /><br />Today I checked all the power cables from battery to engine to control box. All O.K. I took apart all the connections/terminals, and cleaned them. I also checked the throttle and gear cables and re-adjusted as necessary. They are working fine.<br /><br />I took the cover off the air intake and checked that the throttle flapper actually moved the plates in the carbs. They both moved slightly when the throttle flapper was lifted, so no problem there. I also turned the ignition on and pressed the choke button, and both choke plates flicked shut. So that seems to be working O.K.<br /><br />By the way, when I cranked the engine without any fuel tank connected, the engine actually fired and run for a few seconds, probably on what was left in the carbs since the last time it ran or the last time I primed it?<br /><br />Anyway, I took the fuel pump off and overhauled it with a new diaphram and gaskets, etc, and fitted a new piece of fuel line from baynet connection to pump. Those were things that I was going to do anyway.<br /><br />Haven't had a chance to try to start the engine again today, but I have a few questions.<br /><br />When I turned the ignition on and pressed the choke, the choke plates flipped shut, but they stayed shut, even when I turned the ignition off. Is this right, or should they open again when the choke button is let back out and the ignition turned off. Even when I dis-connected the battery, they still remained in the closed position.<br /><br />Also, as I'm thinking ahead, is there a way I can test the power pack? I once had a 9.9 Johnson which developed intermitent starting problems. It turned out it was the power pack.<br /><br />Sorry for all the questions, but I'm a novice, and repair shop bills do not go well with bringing up a young family! I want to get to know my engine as well, so if I can work on it myself, I'll get to find my way around it.<br />I really appreciate all the help that you people are giving me.<br /><br />Thanks again.<br />Steve

 

[SCO]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Yes, that sounds normal about the gear. Check the choke solonoid/plunger for friction or offset spring pull that binds the plunger, it is sensitive and I think the solonoid should spring up to the open position, and solonoid should pull it down to choke. I would forget about that for now and use the manual choke feature presuming there is one. That the engine ran w/o fuel conn is normal. The carb has a bowl that operates like a toilet, and till you drain it without replenishment, it will run. Likewise, when the bowl is full a float valve is shut which is why further pumping of the bulb results in resistance and fuel being forced past orings at conections. Maybe the throttle flapper is not opening enough. Sounds a lot like what mine was doing, fuel would eventually get to crankcase and it would occasionally start after I left it a while. Does it have life at all or is it completely dead when it isn't starting? BTW, I vacationed in England this Summer, great trip. What area are you in? East Saxon country?<br /><br />Next time, leave the carb cover off so you can see the function of choke...you can run it this way in the driveway. If it isnt starting, look and see if the barrel space between the choke flapper and the throttle flapper is fuel coated. Should be wet with normal carb/fuel/choke function. I would also find a way to manually hold throttle open a little more to see if it fires after a no start session. Have someone crank while you manually hold a stick or something to do this. You will have to be ready to let the throttle go and close it as if it starts it will overspeed. Be careful and understand risks and what I am talking about fully . I think I would try this with the fuel line disconnected and carb bowl full as an additional failsafe,and have the starter person instructed to turn off the switch if it starts, but an overspeed even with this precaution(fuel hose disconnected) can and probably will ruin the motor and scare the heck out of you.<br /><br />Also , why did you change plugs in the first place, when was the last time it was running normally before the initial plug change idea, and did you do anything to the connections or engine between the last time it ran normally and the plug change. Has the motor run well for you for a long time prior?<br />Normally, how long do you have to crank(in seconds) to get it to start. A properly adjusted throttle and choke will allow an almost instantaneous start.

 

[steviecops]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Hi SCO, thanks for coming back so quick.<br /><br />I'm in Colchester, which is East Anglia. It's supposed to be Britain oldest recorded town! If you come over again, drop me an e-mail. It'll be nice to meet up. I'm taking my 5 year old to Florida in September next year to see Mickey! Thats why I can't afford to put my engine in the workshop!<br /><br />Anyway, back to the engine. I changed the plugs because the idle was a bit rough and I noticed that it was running on NGK plugs. I've learned from this board, that OMC engines run best on Champion plugs, so I changed them. I've tried the old NGK ones since the engine wouldn't start, but they made no difference.<br /><br />Prior to that, I only bought the boat and engine a few months ago. I took it for a sea trial before I bought it, and apart from the rough idle, the engine ran great for over two hours at all speeds and never missed a beat. I've taken it out fishing twice since I've owned it, and it's started up easily and quickly both times, and run great apart from the slightly rough idle. I found it wouldn't start when I tried to give it a run on the drive, after not having been out for about a month.<br /><br />When the engine is in non start mode, it'll crank but not even attempt to fire. I do seem to be getting a good spark though, even when the engine refuses to start.<br /><br />I'll try using the manual choke to see what happens. It does seem odd that the electric choke doesn't return to the open position when the ignition is turned off. I'll check for any resistance or friction. As far as the throttle opening to start goes, when I lift the flapper, I can watch, what I think is, the throttle lever on the engine move. It comes into contact with a roller on the actual throttle linkage on the carbs, and opens the throttle plates about 1/8th to 1/4 of an inch, at a guess.<br /><br />I don't think I'm ready for trying to hold the throttle open more if it might ruin my motor! Is there a way I can adjust it to make it open more with the flapper? I'm back at work tomorrow, so I won't be able to work on the engine again until Friday.<br /><br />Thanks again for all your help. I really appreciate it.<br /><br />All the best<br />Steve

 

[steviecops]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Sorry, forgot to mention.<br />I didn't change anything other than the plugs, and the engine used to start almost instantaneous as you describe.

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Disconnect the throttle cable and open the throttle flap by hand. Safer that way. Also, choke should return to open position when button is relaesed.

 

[steviecops]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Thanks Rick.<br /><br />So it might be a faulty solonoid?<br /><br />If the plunger is binding, would it be worth giving it a squirt of WD 40? Or would that harm it? I suppose if it is faulty anyway, it might be worth a try?<br /><br />Is there anything else that may make the choke stay shut? And would the choke staying shut prevent my engine from starting?<br /><br />Come to think of it, the times when the engine wouldn't start, I had the carb cover on, so I couldn't see the choke plates. Maybe the solonoid is sticking both ways, and only gets stuck sometimes?<br /><br />Thanks again<br />Steve

 

[SCO]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Would think youre flooding, but you mentioned earlier that the plugs are dry. The solonoid plunger adjustment will be detailed in your repair manual, and wd 40 may not be recommended due to dirt collection. Maybe a dry silicone...a lay suggestion, or just make sure it is clean. I keep thinking that if you have spark, it has to be a fuel problem. Lets isolate that. Next time it doesnt start, give it a shot of premix in the barrels under the throttle plate when the lever is full up and tell us what happens. Another check for the throttle opening is to look at the flapper rotation shaft, and see if it starts rotating as soon as you begin to lift the lever, or if the rotation is delayed to the last part of the lever travel. How do you know that you have good spark even when there is no life during these no starts?<br /><br />Purpose of the choke is to pull more fuel in for the kick off, but choke must be off for the motor to run. Gotta have oxygen and fuel for the combustion. A stuck on choke will foul plugs and generaly flood/ load up the engine. If I leave choke on on my engine, it will die in a few seconds.

 

[steviecops]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

My manual arrived today ;o) It's a Clymer manual and I'll be studying it over the next few days. I'll check the solonoid, as there is clearly a fault with it anyway if the choke plates aren't opening when I release the switch. Or could it be the switch that's faulty? I'll check both.<br /><br />The reason I know I'm getting a good spark, is that when it wouldn't start the other day, I got my wife to crank the engine after I pulled the plugs. As she cranked, I checked both plugs, and there was a strong blue spark and it did jump the half inch to the engine block. I immediately put the plugs back in and tried to start the engine, but it failed to start. I have gone through this procedure twice now.<br /><br />Next time I'll get chance to work on the engine will be Friday. I'll try giving it a shot of pre mix and let you know what happens.<br /><br />Thanks again ;o)<br />Steve

 

[SCO]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Thats good to know about the spark. It is almost certainly fuel, and the shot of premix might confim it. I say might, because if the throttle is not opening enough, enough air/fuel wont get there anyway. You might have an intermittent clog of some sort in the carbs. If the premix works and if the barrels arent coated with fuel after no start full choke cranking for say 5 seconds(check before you use the premix), it is time for carb kits. If the premix doesn't work, it is time to get the throttle flapper open more as per rick above.

 

[steviecops]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

I think I may be very close to solving this problem now. Unless someone can tell otherwise ;o)<br /><br />I gave the carbs a squirt of pre-mix and the engine fired and started with just a touch on the key! I repeated the process, but this time pushed the choke switch in, and the engine wouldn't start. So I did it again without using the choke switch, and the engine fired right up and ran, again almost immediately.<br /><br />I noticed that the choke plates were still not opening when the switch was released, (I had to move the linkage by hand, then the solenoid plunger would pop out and open the choke plates), so I did a test on the solenoid. My manual says I should get a reading of 4-7 Ohms, and I got a reading of 1.9 Ohms. So I assume the solenoid is definately defective. Also, I've proved that my engine won't start when the chokes are closed, by trying with the premix.<br /><br />Does this all sound alright? Is there anything else I should be checking?<br /><br />Thank you all again for all your help.<br /><br />Steve

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Clean and rebuild the carbs. You are not getting fuel to the engine through them. You proved this with the squirt of pre-mix into the throats. Float needles are sticking shut sporadically causing the no-start or floats are saturated with fuel. Jets could also be clogged up. Remove selonoid from choke flapper and manualy operate flap. See if it binds when going from closed to open position. If not, replace selonoid.

 

[steviecops]

Re: Please help. Engine won't start, suspected fuel problem.

Rick<br />Thanks for the advice. Is a carb rebuild a hard job? It sounds very daunting. Does the whole lot need to be set up again afterwards, ie, all the linkages, etc?<br /><br />Why wouldn't my engine start with the premix today when the choke plates were closed, but start O.K with them open?<br /><br />I'd appreciate some advice on the carb rebuild if possible. Would I be better to start a new thread on the subject?<br /><br />Thanks<br />Steve