Please Help with another floor Question

[chrismarion]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

My drainage I made channels coming from the front bow area, where I have two storage bins, to the keel using 1/2 urethane hose bringing the water that may get in or when I wash the storage bins to the keel. From there I used 2 inch pvc cut in half down the middle and made it look just like the picture above all the way down to the bilge. Then I poured in the foam. That was the fun part. So far it looks to be working good!

I hadnt ever seen a picture of pvc like that above. Suprised I thought about that and heres a picture looking identical. Not to bad for a beginner.

 

[klos]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

Most modern fiberglass boats use closed cell poured foam to stiffen the hull and sole, It bonds to the hull, stringers and bottom of the floor. Don't you think that there may be hull flex issues if you use pop bottles or foam blocks? Also I agree with brownies it would probably make lots of noise.
I would either use poured foam or build the stringer system and sole in a way that could compensate for no foam at all.

 

[tmh]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

Most modern fiberglass boats use closed cell poured foam to stiffen the hull and sole, It bonds to the hull, stringers and bottom of the floor. Don't you think that there may be hull flex issues if you use pop bottles or foam blocks? Also I agree with brownies it would probably make lots of noise.
I would either use poured foam or build the stringer system and sole in a way that could compensate for no foam at all.

Although I have no doubt the poured foam stiffens the hull/stringers I don't think that is it's primary purpose...floatation is, and it's required on smaller boats.

I hadn't heard that soda bottles "squeak" before so I'd like to hear more about that - is it a first hand observation or is it just talked about? I planned to glue/epoxy them in tight, I wonder if that would still make noise?

Also, I do plan to add some cross-supports to the stringers to make up for lost rigidity from the missing foam (balk half of my 19' BR only, left the floor/foam in the front because it was fine). So I THINK that will do the trick and make the boat as stable as original, and still have floatation in an emergency.

 

[klos]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

Useing epoxy to glue them down would keep them from rattling around.
One other concern I would have is the pressure inside the bottles. On a cool morning they will offer less floatation than when its 80 deg. in the afternoon.

In the morning when I turn the heat up in my shop I can hear all the empty plastic pop bottles making noise as they expand.

 

[iwombat]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

You may want to test out some of that epoxy on one bottle to make sure it doesn't eat through or harden the plastic.

 

[brownies]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

Bottles will expand and contract. Squeek, pop, etc.
Foam chunks will squeek worse. As time goes by, they shrink (or at least that's what it looks like)....Many older boats were built that way.
Modern boats with closed cell foam (what it's advertised to do and what actually happens are not the same).
Modern boats with "composit" flooring? Pull a drain cover out of the floor of a late model Skeeter that's seen some rain. You can mash that "composite" edge with your fingers...just like rotten wood.

It makes sense that poured in foam would strengthen the hull. It DOES make the boat more rigid and reduces entire flex of the hull. It will also reduce the flex of the hull in a small area to make penetration easier (hit a stump just hard enough to crack the hull, whereas if there was no foam, that area of the hull may have flexed and caused no damage. There's a fine line there. Increases rigidity, but, does not make the hull any thicker.
Most boats have plenty of glass in the hull and are rigid enough with the stringers, flooring, etc.
As was just mentioned above...foam is for floatation when the boat is submerged. If it wasn't mandatory for manufacturers to use it, many would not.
Now that it's mandatory, it's also used as a selling point "We use more floatation than anybody, buy our boat because it won't sink"....should say "because the tip of the bow won't sink quite as far as the competition's product".
I'm not sure if I've removed more foam from boats, or installed more foam. There are lots of factors to consider and personal preference. Most boats that I've torn apart would not have needed taking apart if they had not had foam in them. Some boats actually needed foam in them though due to where they are used (boats that seldom see a trailer). My boats, have no foam...they are just driven with a well thought out PLAN of "what happens if, if, if, if, and/or if...."

 

[Zetman]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

Pool noodles are closed foam celled and I think are a great idea for floation..no squeeks,rattles and lets water shed around them..just a though for what its worth. Zet

 

[iwombat]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

I think the problem with noodles over big blocks is that they're round and don't stack well. i.e. lots of space in between to hold water. they might be good for filling the voids between a few big foam blocks though.

 

[chrismarion]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

pool noodles will retain some water. Not like a sponge, but they will. If you shredd or cut the outer layer of the noodle, the inside absorbs water.
Test it out if you dont believe me. Cut it/rip it and the dunk under water. Squeeze and you see the water and air bubble out.

No offense to anyone, but soda bottles sounds kind of ghetto. $50 will buy you plenty of pour in foam. What I bought expands 10x its mixed size for $25.

 

[tmh]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

No offense to anyone, but soda bottles sounds kind of ghetto. $50 will buy you plenty of pour in foam. What I bought expands 10x its mixed size for $25.

......AND will absorb 100's of lbs of water in time....

Dude, you may be missing the point of the discussion. No one said to use soda bottles to save money. The discussion has to do with why one has to rip the old foam out in the first place - it traps and eventually absorbs the water. Also, the foam is difficult to work with for a novice.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

I'm drilling drainage holes between stringer sections,

I believe those are known as "Limber Holes".........


I've already left My Input to this Same discussion on This thread,.....
http://forums.iboats.com/bbBoard.cgi?a=viewthread;fid=26;gtid=1247182

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

I love this topc, it is a personal fave. Using soda bottles that could rub and build up static electricity and then discharge, causing a fire due to the gasoline vapors that have settled into the bilge just doesn't seem like a good idea. Plus you are piling round things into a void, and leaving a lot of airspace in between. The whole purpose of floatation is to displace water. It is unlikely that the soda bottles under a floor would be able to displace enough water to keep the boat at the surface. Now, if a person wants to use soda bottles with 2 part foam to create a larger amount of cubic footage, I see no problem with that. There would be some pressure on those bottles as the foam expands, but it is unlikely to crush them.

Noodles just does not cut it. Foam block can work as long as there is enough to displace the appropriate amount of water, but there again you have the possibility of static electricity. In the end, the safest, best way is 2 part foam. The only other alternative is no foam at all, but you go get to watch the only thing you might have to cling to in 50 degree water sink to the bottom as you bob out there, nearly invisible. A swamped boat is a lot easier to see than a person bobbing in a life vest.

 

[tmh]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

Jason, some very good points and I will consider them. Safety is very important obviously. I'm wondering if you have any specific basis for the static electricity issue? Is it just something you thought of or are plastic soda bottles know to have this potential? I must say, that never crossed my mind and it concerns me somewhat.

As for the voids, another true observation. I THINK with using different sizes this can be somewhat reduced but still round bottles can not solidly fill an area. My application is only the back 1/2 of the boat but that may be enough "floatation loss" to allow sinkage, I guess.

However, we must all bear in mind that these older boats that so often have soaked foam were certainly NOT going to float as designed! If you replace with more foam, how does one know in 5 yrs you won't have the added water weight back and also loss of floatation from water-logged foam?

I STILL don't have a good solution for this, seems any way you go is a compromise.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

I love this topc, it is a personal fave.

Wow,..... I feel Better Now,.........

I figured that I Pizzed you Off Soooo much a few years ago,........
That You Never wanted to hear,..... Soda Bottle again........

 

[tmh]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

Using soda bottles that could rub and build up static electricity and then discharge, causing a fire due to the gasoline vapors that have settled into the bilge just doesn't seem like a good idea. .

Jason, you really can't make a claim like this and just leave it hanging there! Do you have any specific info as to this being a real danger or did you make it up? From what source is this explosion from soda bottles idea taken? Please expound on this and explain how you made that conclusion. Thanks.

 

[Lou C]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

See the other thread I started on foam in rebuilds. What started me thinking that the foam was really needed, was the comparison of the structure of my 4 winns that had foam, vs the Wellcraft recently posed in this forum, that didn't have foam...mine had 2 transverse bulkheads, the Wellcraft with no foam, had a lot more, probably at least 6 from the pictures. When I did the rebuild, I replaced the foam because 4 Winns told me that it was used both for flotation and structural stiffness. I didn't want to second guess the designer. It seems that if Wellcraft added that many transverse bulkheads, then more stiffness is needed using the typical 4 stringers, than is provided by just 2 bulkheads.
My guess is that if the manufacturer has to add it by law, and knows that it adds stiffness, they can leave out structure, saving some labor cost.
Kind of like the difference between old school convertibles and sedans, the convert had a stiffer frame, to make up for the lack of a steel roof.

As far as the foam being water logged, I found water only at the bottom 1/8 of an inch from the floor, yet there was a lot of rot in this boat. Far from water logged. It seems that previous owners did not cover the boat, it got rained on, the carpet held the water against the floor, only covered with a thin layer of poly resin, that's what started it.

 

[wil7483]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

I too am a firm believer of foam. I know for a fact that it acts as a sound deadener making the ride a little more comfortable.

It also saved my skin once when I forgot to put the plug in before a fishing trip. I truly believe that if the foam wasn't down there the boat would've sunk. By the time we got back to the ramp she was sitting really low in the water but she was still afloat.

When I took the floor up from the Wellcraft I was surprised to find it had no foam at all. I thought long and hard about whether or not I should add some when I put the new floor in. After talking to several people I finally decided not too, but only because the manufacturer didn't when they originally built the boat. I hope it doesn't come back to bite me on the butt though.

If you have the floor up I say put the foam in. As long as you allow space for drainage you shouldn't have any problem with it becoming water logged. I think that the main reason it becomes water logged is because people shot it in and enclose the entire space between the sole, bulkheads, and the stringers. This gives any water that migrates under the deck no where to travel and escape. Water will always seek it's level and given the opportunity to flow unimpeded it will travel to the bilge area to drain out the back of the boat.

 

[klos]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

Using soda bottles that could rub and build up static electricity and then discharge, causing a fire due to the gasoline vapors that have settled into the bilge just doesn't seem like a good idea. .

Jason, you really can't make a claim like this and just leave it hanging there! Do you have any specific info as to this being a real danger or did you make it up? From what source is this explosion from soda bottles idea taken? Please expound on this and explain how you made that conclusion. Thanks.

Jason is correct about the static discharg.
Here ya go. From www.wikipedia.org

The presence of surface charge imbalance means that the objects will exhibit attractive or repulsive forces. This surface charge imbalance, which leads to static electricity, can be generated by touching two differing surfaces together and then separating them due to the phenomena of contact electrification and the triboelectric effect. Rubbing two non-conductive objects generates a great amount of static electricity. This is not just the result of friction; two non-conductive surfaces can become charged by just being placed one on top of the other. Since most surfaces have a rough texture, it takes longer to achieve charging through contact than through rubbing. Rubbing objects together increases amount of adhesive contact between the two surfaces. Usually insulators, e.g., substances that do not conduct electricity, are good at both generating, and holding, a surface charge. Some examples of these substances are rubber, plastic, glass, and pith.

 

[tmh]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

nah..., nothing at all alluding to or specific to soda bottles or any sort of plastic bottle. To abide by THAT explanation one could have no glass, rubber,plastic items in the vacinity of potential gas fumes. Not realistic.

 

[chrismarion]

Re: Please Help with another floor Question

I fully understand the topic of this discussion and know that soda bottles will also not cut it. This is my first boat build and using the foam was easy. Its not rocket science. Use simple math and common sense.
I know I am not alone here, but if your not going to do it right the first time why do it at all? There is absolutely no point in discussing ways to 'CUT COSTS' that are not safe, not cost effective and just plain dumb.Especially when you have to go back and tear it apart do to no floatation. The RE-repair costs outwiegh the original cost. It seems to me that no matter what hobby your into, there seems to be people who do not understand that just because you are saving a few bucks now will turn into hundreds later in repairs. I see it everyday at my job.

Exactly as stated above, foam was there for a reason.