Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

[britisher]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

A mechanic in the auto repair industry explained to me once how auto shops charge out. Chilton and another organization plus the manufacturers themselves have stated times to complete certain jobs. Multiply that by the hourly rate and you have the cost plus shops stuff, tax, etc. There will of course be the other smaller garages that pluck a figure out of thin air. I realise that the boat industry is still in the dark ages in many respects compared to the auto industry, but I would have thought that given many motors are auto based, costings would be similar. The guy I have used for jobs I cannot due on my boat charges out at $75.00 per hour (and I thought that was steep). I guess for many of us who do our own repairs & maintenance on boats and autos, we get out of touch with current labor charges

 

[Farginicehole2]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Thanks for all of the replies, guys. They just explained that the one bolt was a little difficult due to being so close to the bell housing. No other difficulties reported other than that, and my bilge wasn't a complete mess. I reluctantly paid the bill and took the boat home, and still feel like minewas one of the jobs where they made up quite a bit of ground from other more difficult jobs where they may have lost money. When I told them I should have asked for an estimate before I left after dropping it off, they said they do not give estimates because every boat is different (to which I would have said something like "Well, if it's going to be over XX amount, call me before proceding).

I'll quit whining now, chalk it up to another expensive "I won't do THAT next time!" lesson, and hopefully get the boat wet this weekend to go after some salmon. I do need to give everything a good looking over though, as I immediately noticed that they zip tied the fuel line for my kicker motor in a location that isn't going to work, and in the process loosened the screw-in fuel barb coming out of the glass inline filter, so it would have undoubtedly leaked fuel into my bilge.

Have a great weekend, all!

 

[Volphin]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Thanks for all of the replies, guys. They just explained that the one bolt was a little difficult due to being so close to the bell housing. No other difficulties reported other than that, and my bilge wasn't a complete mess. I reluctantly paid the bill and took the boat home, and still feel like minewas one of the jobs where they made up quite a bit of ground from other more difficult jobs where they may have lost money. When I told them I should have asked for an estimate before I left after dropping it off, they said they do not give estimates because every boat is different (to which I would have said something like "Well, if it's going to be over XX amount, call me before proceding).

I'll quit whining now, chalk it up to another expensive "I won't do THAT next time!" lesson, and hopefully get the boat wet this weekend to go after some salmon. I do need to give everything a good looking over though, as I immediately noticed that they zip tied the fuel line for my kicker motor in a location that isn't going to work, and in the process loosened the screw-in fuel barb coming out of the glass inline filter, so it would have undoubtedly leaked fuel into my bilge.

Have a great weekend, all!

So are we all entitled to one salmon each? Good luck fishing!

 

[achris]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

... I realise that the boat industry is still in the dark ages in many respects compared to the auto industry, ...

It's not that the boat industry is in the dark ages, it's more to do with the way cars and boats vary. When car makers produces a car, it's off a factory line, and there's thousands of them, with the same engine layout, the same interior layout, etc... Cars are 'predicable'... Boats... Oh, my god... I don't think I have even seen 2 boats the same... Everybody 'customizes' a boat. And that leads to problems when it comes to 'flat-rate' servicing. Also, vastly different boats use the same engine. So you might have the situation I'm about to be in. I have a customer who's boat I'll be installing a new 4.3MPI. It's into an aluminium hull with no transom deck (to speak of), so the installation is about 1.5 hours. It's just a matter of pulling the engine cover back (it's not even bolted down) and dropping the engine straight down into the hole.. Now, I have another customer with EXACTLY the same engine in a Whittley Cruiser. Just removing the decking hand rails (around the stern) so I can access the cockpit takes 2 hours... Then the engine is down and back, under a VERY large transom deck. Getting this engine out is a 4 hour job! So, how do I 'flat-rate' that? Or, what about replacing the power steering actuator. On the ali boat, about a 1 hour job. On the Whittley you can't get to the actuator without removing the engine.... You're looking at a MINIMUM of 7 hours, just to R & R the engine. Then about 30 minutes to do the actuator.... What do I charge each of them?

Let's Look at those 2 boats again. A standard service. On the ali boat, easy... Pull the engine cover back, great access. Nothing else to remove to get at spark plugs, starter motors, grease fitting on the engine coupler, grease fitting on the steering cable (they both use quicksilver cable, thank God!). On the Whittley there is a maze of little cupboards and pockets and hidden storage areas. I have to remove half those to get to the rear plugs on the engine. The time taken just to remove and replace those access panels is more than the time to do the actual service on the engine... Getting to the grease fittings on the coupler and steering cable requires contortionary skills of monumental proportions. So, how do I charge for those 2? Charge a flat rate according to the one that takes the longest? Unfair on the ali boat owner. Charge an average of the times taken. Also unfair on the ali boat owner. Maybe charge the time taken on the ali boat... Unfair on me.... So, you see, every boat is different, so there can't be a flat rate for everything... On boat's, it just doesn't work....

This has gone on way longer than I hoped... So I'll just say...

Cheers, and leave it at that....

Chris.....

 

[GA_Boater]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Good stuff there, Chris. It's like an oil and filter change. Many think of changing oil in a car and don't think that you can't raise a boat, drain the oil and undo the filter, spin on the new filter, drop the boat and pour in 5 or so quarts of oil. Even the easiest of boats probably take at least twice or thrice the time as a car. Wrestling with a drain pan even when you have some room is still a bear.

 

[achris]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Good stuff there, Chris. It's like an oil and filter change. Many think of changing oil in a car and don't think that you can't raise a boat, drain the oil and undo the filter, spin on the new filter, drop the boat and pour in 5 or so quarts of oil. Even the easiest of boats probably take at least twice or thrice the time as a car. Wrestling with a drain pan even when you have some room is still a bear.

Oil changes.... :facepalm:

 

[achris]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

" I really feel like they're trying to screw me, which is why I almost always try to be my own "wrench." My wife and a few of my friends think I'm just being cheap, but I like knowing how stuff works, and better yet, not being completely at the mercy of shops that sometimes take advantage "...

Hellllloooooo brother....

 

[GA_Boater]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Oil changes.... :facepalm:

Did I poke a sore spot there, Chris? I change engine oil every time I put gas in the tank.:watermelon:

 

[Farginicehole2]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Volphin, I can't make any promises. I'm usually reminded of why they call it "fishing", and not "catching", on the all too rare occasions when I make it out (day job is cramping my style!).

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Late to the party, but I do not think that $610 for a starter motor replacement plus a manifold re-install is that bad. I would expect the starter replacement alone to be about $500. So, $610 with the manifold installation is within expectations.

if you are going to have work done for you, don't expect to get a bargain. Those situations are few and far between.

 

[Lou C]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

I am often telling my friends that are not mechanically minded, that unless they have done some of these jobs they have no idea what is involved. And that doesn't even address the fact that a shop has to cover their overhead and make a profit to stay in business. Now what boat buyers could do to help themselves, is think about the common repairs that boats will need if you keep it long enough. Starter, exhaust manifolds, impeller, oil filter, fuel filter, those are probably the most commonly serviced items. I personally look at how difficult those repairs would be. If I see a boat with drain plugs you can't reach, a buried standard mount oil filter, exhaust manifolds with un-needed fiberglass sections jammed up against them, a Volvo impeller stuck behind a rear seat, I would NOT buy that boat, period! I have an 88 Four Winns that has the old school big sunpad and bench seat. When I remove the rear bulkhead and seats it is wide open. When I re-did the interior some years back I made some modifications to make it easier for the mechanic (me). I took the big 6 foot wide bulkhead (heavy 3/4" plywood) and cut it in half vertically and put a take apart hinge in the middle. For the seating, I used 2-36" wide pontoon couches so that I can remove either one, or both. Usually when I winterize it, I remove the port side rear seat and the bulkhead on that side. Then I can lie down next to the engine slide the battery back and change the oil filter. I can get at the other side without removing the starboard side seat because the short 4.3 has enough room around it that I can reach the fuel filter and the drain plugs on the starboard side. If have to get the starter out I remove the starboard side seat and bulkhead. If I were doing it over again now, I'd make it even easier and fab up 2 folding jumpseats mounted to the bulkhead. A boat does not have to look like a living room, LOL....

 

[500dollar744ti]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

I have actually worked as a certified mechanic. Here's how the equation works. You need a tune up. The labor book calls for 2 hours to be charged for this tune up. I get it done in 30 minutes due to my skill, experience, and sweat. Not to mention my tools & special tools & education, for which I spent a great deal of money. I earn the full 2 hours of pay (I don't get the full $90 per hr, but a percentage of that as the tech).

The next tune up comes in. The shop charges the same 2 hours according to the flat rate manual. This time, a customer has cross threaded a spark plug or some other unforeseen problem happens. Maybe my air tool dies... whatever. It takes me 3 hours to do that tune up. I only get paid for 2 hours. The max I can make is 2 hours. But if I do it faster, I am issued another job where I can make more hours. Get it?

Without looking at the flat rate book, I have no idea if you overpaid. Some shops charge an hour of diagnostic time for some issues then report the findings and figure out how you want to proceed.

The bottom line is: Ask up front. It's your boat and you have asked someone very skilled to fix what you cannot.

Perfect explanation! I'm a master tech at a car dealership and I still have a hard time getting people to understand how the pay scale works.

Also, I don't get paid to work on boats but I'll tell you right now I'd be charging 4 hours labor to remove and replace a starter on a Mercruiser v8 in close quarters. Doing it on my own boat has shown that would be a reasonable rate.

Part of that 4 hours accounts for actual time it takes me to replace your starter, some of it accounts for my tools, experience, and training, some of it goes towards the cuts I'll get on my fingers and the oily residue getting in my cuts, then the cursing when my arm gets scraped up trying to hold on to the starter while I snake it out of the bilge. The last bit will go towards the time I spend trying to fish the bolt out of your mucky, oily bilge when it slips from my fingers while trying to get it started.

You see, if it wasn't worth paying 4 hours labor to do, you would have done it yourself.

 

[achris]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Did I poke a sore spot there, Chris? I change engine oil every time I put gas in the tank.:watermelon:

You most certainly did! I change oil whenever I take the engine out... :facepalm:... Find my posts on broken timing covers/front engine oil leaks.... :facepalm: :facepalm:

 

[Bt Doctur]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

e process loosened the screw-in fuel barb coming out of the glass inline filter, so it would have undoubtedly leaked fuel into my bilge.

Gonna leak more when the glass cylinder breaks. Guess that type is cheaper than the correct type. you do know you can draw from your spin-on filter for an O/B motor.

 

[Idlespeedonly]

Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

you do know you can draw from your spin-on filter for an O/B motor.

Unless it is pre-mix.