Primer bulb collapsing, motor wont run

[ShoestringMariner]

Hey everyone, this is very similar to another posters question, though mine is different in the respect that I've recently done a fuel pump conversion, so I'm wondering if I goofed somewhere. That and now the motor wont run. After the new pump installation, it ran ok in the tank, but it was a bear to start, lean sneezing and all. Primer bulb felt like it was doing nothing - a squirt of fuel in the bore got it going. vent was open, arrows to carb and all...

the basics are this; Its a 1958 Johnson (QD-19)

The conversion (except the pump installation) was done buy a reputable classic motor guy, so I assume the problem was at MY end.

New Briggs and Stratton pump and new fuel lines
New generic OMC single line hose and primer, plastic tank and fitting.
The gas is 4-6 months old, premium with stabilzer. Not exactly fresh, but all of my outdoor equip is running on it with no issues.

One thing I did not do was put an online filter on the supply line, and had low speed issues in the past.
I am going to install one and clean the carb...I think that's suspect # 1, especially the lean sneezing before it quit altogether. I poured this fuel from my old pressure tank (clean to the eye) into a clean, screened funnel into the new tank, but I'm almost certain there must be micro junk I cannot see which is now probably plugging my carb

Suspect # 2 is why is the primer bulb going so flat that the motor refuses to run at all? The arrows point from the can to the carb.
With the fuel pump, I have the P line connected to the line off of the inspection cover (?) and the arrow pointed to the carb (I think), vent is open, removing cap completely makes no difference. Faulty check valve?

Thanks in advance

 

[Chris1956]

If the primer bulb goes flat, there is a restriction between the primer bulb and the tank. The tank vent could be closed, the pickup screen in the tank could be clogged or something similar.

 

[wahlejim]

Double check and make sure the bulb is installed correctly with the arrow pointing to the engine. If it is, I agree with Chris that there is a restriction somewhere between the bulb and fuel. could be in the elbow if the tank or the pickup tube itself, but most likely the check ball in the bulb is sticking. Bulbs are cheap, try a new one.

 

[Maclin]

Is this in a boat now? What type of fuel tank are you using?

 

[oldboat1]

When you squeeze the bulb, are you sure fuel goes through to the carb? Pulse would be from a fitting in one of the bypass covers, which is probably what you have -- old pressure source needs to be blocked off as well.

It sounds like you were pretty careful with the fuel condition, but what about the mix? Should be running on 24:1. Additionally, maybe you need to adjust the carb needles.

 

[ShoestringMariner]

Thanks guys, it didn't feel like the bulb did anything right from the start. Like it was empty. arrows pointing to motor, vent open. Shot of fuel in the plugs made it fire and run for a while. Then the motor died was tough to start or keep idling, then nothing at all...bulb was totally imploded.

I'm going to open the tank up and see if there is plastic on the screen or anything. Its a brand new neptune tank. If all is good, there, I will take it back for an exchange. (AND a filter)

Running 24:1, premium fuel with stabilizer and a shot of lucas

I will go through it all and try it again after the filter is in place.

 

[oldboat1]

Have to say a filter seems counterproductive. If you have carb issues, it's more likely due to past problems, maybe something missed in a prior cleaning. At the moment, the issue seems to be fuel flow.

Is there a known good tank and line that you could borrow for testing?

 

[roscoe]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were plastic shavings in the new tank or pickup tube.
Some might be stuck in the bulb check valve now.

Experienced this with a brand new engine and tank a few years ago.

Or, the bulb was shot from the start. Been there too.

Now I always check them at the store before purchase.

 

[ShoestringMariner]

Thanks, I'll be looking at it today.
Never considered rinsing a new tank...

 

[ShoestringMariner]

Puzzling. It's running fine now after I let air into the line (released the bulb from its implosion). It must have something to do with the anti siphon check valve. I think I'll replace it or pick up a spare

thanks for the help guys

 

[ShoestringMariner]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were plastic shavings in the new tank or pickup tube.
Some might be stuck in the bulb check valve now.

Experienced this with a brand new engine and tank a few years ago.

Or, the bulb was shot from the start. Been there too.

Now I always check them at the store before purchase.

How do you know if the bulb is good when you are at the store? Does the bulb build pressure with the coupling disconnected?

 

[Maclin]

Did the tank you replaced have an anti-siphon valve? As I understand it, not all configurations are required to have one. Most outboard installations do not, or did not at one time. Has to do with installed height of the tank in relation to engine fuel pump fittings and filters, etc. My 1980 Outboard with internal tank did not have it, the install looked original. I have read about it in more than one source, Outboard installs not having one. Just an idea, to leave it out as one may not be required.


I found where someone had posted the CG regulations, typical outboard installs can "stop" at (a)...

Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 33, Volume 2]
[Revised as of July 1, 2005]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 33CFR183.568]

[Page 891]

TITLE 33--NAVIGATION AND NAVIGABLE WATERS

CHAPTER I--COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY (CONTINUED)

PART 183_BOATS AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT--[COLOR=#67B045 !important]Table of Contents[/COLOR]

Subpart J_Fuel Systems

Sec. 183.568 Anti-siphon protection.

Each fuel line from the fuel tank to the fuel inlet connection on
the carburetor must:
(a) Be above the level of the tank top; or
(b) Have an anti-siphon device or an electrically operated fuel stop valve:

(1) At the tank withdrawal fitting; or
(2) Installed so the line from the fuel tank is above the top of the
tank; or​

(c) Provided that the fuel tank top is below the level of the
carburetor inlet, be metallic fuel lines meeting the construction
requirements of Sec. 183.538 or ``USCG Type A1'' hose, with one or two
manual shutoff valves installed as follows:

(1) Directly at the fuel tank connection arranged to be readily
accessible for operation from outside of the compartment, and
(2) If the length of fuel line from the tank outlet to the engine
inlet is greater than 12 feet, a manual shutoff valve shall be installed
at the fuel inlet connection to the engine.​

 

[ShoestringMariner]

Did the tank you replaced have an anti-siphon valve? As I understand it, not all configurations are required to have one. Most outboard installations do not, or did not at one time. Has to do with installed height of the tank in relation to engine fuel pump fittings and filters, etc. My 1980 Outboard with internal tank did not have it, the install looked original. I have read about it in more than one source, Outboard installs not having one. Just an idea, to leave it out as one may not be required.


I found where someone had posted the CG regulations, typical outboard installs can "stop" at (a)...

Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 33, Volume 2]
[Revised as of July 1, 2005]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 33CFR183.568]

[Page 891]

TITLE 33--NAVIGATION AND NAVIGABLE WATERS

CHAPTER I--COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY (CONTINUED)

PART 183_BOATS AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT--[COLOR=#67B045 !important]Table of Contents[/COLOR]

Subpart J_Fuel Systems

Sec. 183.568 Anti-siphon protection.

Each fuel line from the fuel tank to the fuel inlet connection on
the carburetor must:
(a) Be above the level of the tank top; or
(b) Have an anti-siphon device or an electrically operated fuel stop valve:

(1) At the tank withdrawal fitting; or
(2) Installed so the line from the fuel tank is above the top of the
tank; or​

(c) Provided that the fuel tank top is below the level of the
carburetor inlet, be metallic fuel lines meeting the construction
requirements of Sec. 183.538 or ``USCG Type A1'' hose, with one or two
manual shutoff valves installed as follows:

(1) Directly at the fuel tank connection arranged to be readily
accessible for operation from outside of the compartment, and
(2) If the length of fuel line from the tank outlet to the engine
inlet is greater than 12 feet, a manual shutoff valve shall be installed
at the fuel inlet connection to the engine.​

I don't know if it does or is supposed to have one. I've thrown out the packaging. It was a universal OMC line complete with bulb and fittings. Another poster mentioned the anti siphon valve, so I assumed it was standard to these things.

The old tank was a pressure tank, this is a conversion

 

[oldboat1]

Problem might have been the connector at the motor. I had a similar problem with a trolling motor, and found that releasing pressure in the line allowed the system to return to normal. That's a fancy way of saying I stuck a phillips screw driver in the fuel connector to release fuel and pressure (NOT an approved fix -- point it away from your face). If I just left the motor and tank connected when not in use, I was able to prime and start normally the next time. That was a better solution, so went with that.

 

[roscoe]

How do you know if the bulb is good when you are at the store? Does the bulb build pressure with the coupling disconnected?

I buy just the bulb, or bulb and hose without fittings . I have plenty of fittings laying around.

But to check it before purchase, simply squeeze and verify that air only comes out one side of the bulb, then check that a small vacuum is formed on the other side while squeezing the bulb.

Also, you will find that the factory OEM bulbs from Mercury or Yamaha or BRP are made of a much more pliable rubber material, than a generic walmart brand. The OEM bulbs hold up longer, and you pay for the quality.

 

[Old Ironmaker]

I had a similar problem a few years back with my 15 horse kicker. The bulb was bad after a few uses. Drove us nuts because it can't be the bulb, it's brand new out of the box, wrong. See my moto below.

 

[ShoestringMariner]

Thanks again guys.