Prop Slip Explanation

AUGIDAWG

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 31, 2002
Messages
189
Re: Prop Slip Explanation

Even if water was solid, you would have slip.<br /><br />For example: A motorcycle tire slips 7%-10% at top speed.<br />You can not have traction, unless you have slip.<br />I won't get into it, just trust me.<br /><br />Why do you think tires are speed rated?<br />It is not because of the centrifugal force, it because of the heat generated caused from slipping.
 

jim dozier

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jan 8, 2003
Messages
1,970
Re: Prop Slip Explanation

Augidawg I think we're talking about 2 different kinds of "slippage" here. When you rotate a screw into a tapped hole in metal there might be essentially 0% "slippage" in the efficiency with which the screw pulls itself through the metal in the direction of the pitch. However there is a great deal of slippage or friction going on around the blades (threads) of the screw as it is rotated throgh the material, and it will get hot as a result. "Slippage" in the prop text does not refer to the friction of the blades through the medium (water or whatever) but to its progress through the medium which is what the pitch refers to. One revolution will push the screw X number of distance units if there is no slippage. Slippage occurs in water because its a fluid.<br /><br />By the way, most of the heat generated in your example is from the flexing of the tires sidewall, because the tire when weighed upon by the car has a flat spot in the tread (the traction patch) and it acts a bit like a small 4 or 5 inch tank tread. Most of the friction (and as a result heat) occurs from the flexible tire sidewalls. Inflated rubber tires are essentially always trying to climb up a small hill. Some of the heat (especially in racing) comes from pushing the tire past its traciton limits and inducing slippage and friction directly in the contact patch. There is a static and a kinetic coefficient of friction for all materials. The static coefficient of friction is higher than the kinetic (This means that once a skid starts the friction acually goes down which is why we try not to lock up our auto's brakes and developed anti-skid brakes). Steel train wheels do not deform as much (still they do a little) and have less friction in the rotating surface, but because they would be incredibly bumpy and heavy on a road and don't grab asphalt well we use inflated (not solid) rubber tires. The need for directional control in a car outweighs the need for a low friction wheel. The speed rating of auto tires refers to the ability of the tire to withstand the high speed standing wave that generates in the sidewall and deforms the contact patch because of the flexing. Different fabric angles and construction techniques allow tires to achieve higher speeds with less flex and a more stable tread patch at high speeds.<br /><br />Another way to describe the difference. A straight cut gear meshing with another gear will have 0% slippage in its ability to push the other gear in the direction of rotation. However there is slippage and friction and heat as the gear teeth engage and disengage or "slip" over each other, which is why we oil them to reduce the friction. This lubrication actually increases the slippage and reduces the friction but has no effect whatsoever on the forward progress of the gear in the transmission.<br /><br />I'll just slip away now my threads need cleaning :D
 

AUGIDAWG

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 31, 2002
Messages
189
Re: Prop Slip Explanation

Actually, comparing the slip of a motorcycle tire and a prop are very simular.<br />A more efficient tire will slip less. (prop shape)<br />A heavier bike will have more tire slip as it accelerates. (heavier boat)<br />A stream lined bike will have less tire slip. (2x4 glued to the bottom of transom)
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
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Jan 24, 2002
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4,698
Re: Prop Slip Explanation

.<br />Forktail,<br /><br />If you read this, shoot me an email at:<br /><br />seahorse5@hotmail.com<br /><br />By the way, that was a very good post about prop slip that you did up the iine here.
 

P.V.

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Messages
452
Re: Prop Slip Explanation

May I pipe in prior to this thread being closed??? It is my belief, perhaps wrong...... but in more real world senerios, it really doesn't matter what percentage of "slip" is or isn't happening. OMC, as an example, usually made most of their 3 cylinder ,V4 and V6 gearcases with a gear-ratio that would allow (for most recreational and fishing boat hull applications) a prop selection in roughly the middle of the available props that they happen to make. ie: most 17, 18 or 20 foot hulls will "usually" use somewhere in the 17,19 or 21" pitch props. This is fairly true of Mercury also. In order to "adjust" rpms/speed (while staying within the rpm range of the engine) you just select a pitch size lower or higher than the one you currantly have. If you are running a 19" and you are in the middle of the rpm range, you jump lower (17") to get more rpms (and "hole shot").You usually have to give up top-end speed but that's the breaks! Remember that changing pitch may also change the diameter (17,19 and 21" props may have slightly different bigger or smaller diameter but you do not have a choise of pitch AND diameter so you go with the pitch choises you want and live with the diameter you get! Lighter hulls with more horsepower will generally move you up to higher pitch props and larger and heavier hulls will move you down in pitch , generally speaking! What I've said just now is what most of us already know! But I think some people are getting confused. Now, here is the clincher!!! You cannot adjust slip, it just IS!!!!!!It makes no difference to you or anybody, what percentage slip you have!!! You cannot change it !You can change the performance of the prop and of the hull and vary the slip, but you are not really adjusting slip, it just goes along for the ride! If you really want to know what the numbers are....... well,OK, figure them out, all you math experts with your calculaters. And then you'll really have useless info that you can not do anything with except brag about to the boys down at the bass club!!!But really, it's a tried and true method of rigging a boat, with a particular motor, and a fairly common prop and then by trial and error, switching from one pitch to another, various pitches, aluminum vs. stainless, high rake vs cleaver, blah, blah......... With all the props that Mercury makes, is anyone going to just buy a $600 prop based on what the theoretical speed should be based on "slip calculations"!! No! You're going to ask your local knowledgable dealer what prop you can buy/test/return/switch untill you get "in the ballpark" of what you want/need/are will to spend/he's willing to order!!! Mercury makes probably about 200 or more different props for a V-6 engine. Now that's confusing!!!!Try to pick just one, for your money! My point is.... let's not get too hung up on slip when for most of us... it does us no difference. For those who like cutting hairs, go for it, but the real world is not about percentage of slip that you may or may not have, but keeping the engine within guideline of how it wants to run and how you want to use it!!! That's my story and it's changing minute by minute!!.... PS, I'm sure proud of you for getting along so well with each other!! Let's not loose our sense of humor.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
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Mar 25, 2001
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45,907
Re: Prop Slip Explanation

Hi, PV.<br /><br />I think DHadley would disagree with you that you cannot "adjust" slip.<br /><br />Take a typical boat, rigged by a typical wrench, out and measure the parameters. Calculate the slip.<br /><br />Now relocate some weight, polish the bottom, set the engine back a few inches or raise it an inch or two (DHadley's beloved "X" dimension); or any combination of these.<br /><br />Redo your test, above. You will have "adjusted slip" without touching the prop.
 

walleyehed

Admiral
Joined
Jun 29, 2003
Messages
6,767
Re: Prop Slip Explanation

Ditto.....Dhadley's X-demension "proved it" to me. same prop, 650rpm higher...18%, down to 11.5%...no prop change. :D
 

AUGIDAWG

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Oct 31, 2002
Messages
189
Re: Prop Slip Explanation

You can also adjust slip by venting the hub.
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
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Feb 4, 2001
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Re: Prop Slip Explanation

mmcpeck -- your gear ratio is 1.85:1. Try raising the motors to see how the set up reacts. Check your toe in afterwards. It sould be around a 1/4" or so. You can experiment with that also. If you have counter rotating gearcases, try the counter (left hand rotation) on the starboard side. Most likely its on the port now.<br /><br />Good luck!
 

Cricket Too

Lieutenant Commander
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May 14, 2003
Messages
1,732
Re: Prop Slip Explanation

Dhadley.....Not really sure what the toe in is. I do have counter rotating gearcases and I'm gonna do water pumps on both in the spring so maybe I'll swap them and try it, the counter rotating gearcase is on the port side, it seems that most that I've seen are like that, what's the reason for that? Thanks.
 

P.V.

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Messages
452
Re: Prop Slip Explanation

To JB and Walleyehed, It appears that what you are calling "adjusting", I'm calling "changing". I agree that raising a motor up or down, fore or aft, moving the boats weight around, etc.... will change many things, including "slip". However, I have never had a customer come in to my store asking to get from say, 21% slippage to 14%. I ask him what he wants. He asks for more hole shot, more top end speed or more mid-throttle acceleration, for example. He can change anything he wants to calculate "better/less" slip but no matter what he does, move batteries around, add a jack-plate, kick Uncle Bob's fat arse off the back of the boat, he is gunna have to contend with what these results are going to do with the running characteristics of the motor. He may not have to do anything, but he needs to know the potential for destruction. Is he now in a lugging situation? Is he potentially going to throw a rod as the engine now over-revs? Does the boat now porpise? Does the stern need lifting or is the bow too light?? In his quest for the optimum "slip", it's the set-up of the hull,weight,engine and desired running demands that will determine what any final propellor someone ends up with. Outboard manufacturers don't offer too many different gear ratios to choose from so it's "set-up" and props that most of us have to play with! That's real world! It is limited by how many times the customer wants to raise or lower his motor, how many jack plates with different set-back measurements he wants to try, how many props he can convince the dealer to buy/loan, how much time,money and patience he has... "Slip", hopfully less, right? just comes along for the ride! Anyway, you guys have a good day!
 

AUGIDAWG

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 31, 2002
Messages
189
Re: Prop Slip Explanation

But, if you understand slip, and a customer comes in and says that his stainless standard cupped 19" pitch prop is turning 6000 rpm, and wants to drop it slightly, you could recommend a stainless double cupped 19" pitched prop.<br />You don't need to calculate it, just understand it.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
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Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Prop Slip Explanation

P.V.<br /><br />Your semantics point is well made. I concede it. :)
 
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