Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

[18rabbit]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

Originally posted by KenImpZoom:<br /> So it is actually wrong to call an appliance a 220V, it is really a double 110v, with the two 110v lines 180 degrees apart.

Good question!<br /><br />No. It works kind of like 24vdc on a boat. If you put a pair of 12v batteries (i.e. two 12v sources) in series you can measure 24v on the line. When two 120vac lines are brought together one of two things happens; either you can measure 120vac on the line if both lines are in the same phase (i.e., from the same source, the side of the transformer in Fireship1’s example above), or you can measure 240vac if both 120vac lines are out of phase, i.e. from different sources, one from each side of the transformer. Each phase is often referred to as a ‘pole’. The key to getting 24vdc on a boat or 240vac in an appliance is TWO sources for the power.<br /><br />In a 240vac dryer, two out-of-phase 120vac lines are coming together somewhere. You can measure 240vac, because both 120v ‘hots’ are using the same ‘neutral’. There is 240v inside of a 240v appliance.<br /><br />Traditionally, 240vac required 3 lines and plugs with 3 prongs; 120v hot pole-1, 120v hot pole-2, and a shared neutral. That’s changing. 240vac will be 4 lines and use plugs with 4 prongs. What’s being added is the green wire, the safety ground that is in your household 120vac wall receptacles, the round hole. The neutral in the new 240vac plugs will stay shared, i.e. it will still carry 240v on it.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

Originally posted by Fireship1:<br /> If you really want to get confusing we can bring up 3 phase power and 3 phase delta systems. Don't want to drive poor Ken crazy with all that. I think you explained it best to him Crab bait. Now we just need to find out what kind of service panel he has. Hey Ken. Off the top of my head Cutler Hammer is another brand of panel with colored handle breakers. Sound familiar at all?

Don’t know if it matters to you, when I live the code requires all circuit breakers in a panel be of the same manufacture as the panel itself. We cannot have Square D or Murray breakers in a CH panel, etc. Just because you can get a breaker to sit in a panel doesn’t mean it necessarily fits. There are small diffs that can prevent proper contact with the rails. Best thing to do is to use a breaker from the same manf as the panel.

 

[--GQ--]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

Your AC unit has a name plate stamped on it somewhere. That will tell you wether its a 120 or 240v setup. The breakers in your panel should also have sticker or stamp on it. At least one of them and not necessary the breaker you are trying to replace. If you know the name of the Panel great, if not write down the infos. on the breakers and take it to an Electrical Supply house or post it on here and see if i can dig it up. <br /><br />Note: There are two types of breakers; snap-in and screw-in . Because all electrical devices are tested by UL, the name brand is not important. GE breakers work fine in old Westinghouse Panel. (Its like connecting a HP monitor to a Dell computer). Ofcourse snap-in breakers will not fit into a Screw-in type panel. Likewise the other way around. Some snap-in Panel will not accomondate snap-in breakers of different brands (manufacture monopoly). All breakers manufactured for residential use are rated at 10,000 AIC. which is the lowest rating (economic reason).<br /><br />The word "Phase" is used inconjunction with the letter A, B or C to define "electrical seperation" between the phases in a 3 phase system. Phase A,B and C have 120 degree of electrical seperation and thier voltage peak at different position relative to the neutral plane in one revolution (360 degrees). Hint the Trig. terms Sine, Cosine, Tangent.<br /><br />The power system in you house and every house in the western hemisphere for that matter is "Single Phase". You house Panel has two sides; A and B. No electrical seperation between them. A and B are two ends of a coil of wire inside a 240v single phase transformer with a center tap (neutral). Thus producing the 120v capability between neutral to A or B side and ofcourse 240v from A to B. See diagram below.<br /> <br /><br />

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

Originally posted by --GQ--:<br /> ... Because all electrical devices are tested by UL, the name brand is not important.

I can understand how to came to this conclusion, but it is not accurate. Not all circuit breakers are approved for use in all panels. It depends on what the device is and the INTENTED use of the device is. If the manf specifies a breaker is for use in model XYZ panel (manfs MUST specify the panel models) then the breaker is UL approved for use in that panel ONLY.<br /><br />I don’t think is it possible to buy any part of an electrical system that is not UL approved; wire, panels, breakers, switches, receptacles, doorbells, light bulbs, smoke detectors ... from power generation somewhere in the Rocky Mts to the national power grid to the wall receptacles in your home. ALL of it is UL approved.<br /><br />Many folks don’t realize that UL also certifies the plastics used in pharmaceuticals, electronics, everything! When you look at the components on your computer’s motherboard, all those plastic housings are specific colors to indicate specific properties of the plastic. There is a reason why your SATA connector is black, something else is blue, another thingy is yellow ... it represents diff properties of the plastics used. It’s more than just pretty colors.<br /> <br /><br />There are two areas UL does not venture into; (1) automobiles, because Consumer’s Union (aka Consumer Reports) does it, and (2) gaming software, because there currently exists no way to measure any harmful psychological effect of playing video games.<br /><br />Worth knowing: airlines are starting to put power points on their aircraft so that passengers can plug in their MP3 players and laptop computers for power beyond what batteries will provide. None of the power points or the adapters for electronics used on those power points are UL approved. UL won’t certify them. UL cannot guarantee the safe use of power on airliners because it is considered an “uncontrolled environment”. (That’s scary!) The manf of electronics cannot mention the aircraft power points or the availability of any adapter for use on aircraft in any of the literature that is supplied with the electronics, not if they are seeking UL approval of their product. If you want to plug your laptop into the power point on an airplane, you’ll need to contact the manf to see if an adapter is available for your computer.<br /><br />Virtually every computer made is UL approved. Computers are considered business machines and are tested to a higher std than products intended for use in the home. That’s why there are never any vent holes in the top of your computer case, or the bottom if there is a power supply or pc board above...why the Intel spec for a P4 cooling vent is on the SIDE of the case. Some municipalities and many insurance companies require that business only use machines that are UL approved. Also the reason why there are no integrated amp/subwoofers used in movie theaters.

 

[crab bait]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

it's also called 'single phase' cause only one/single high voltage line feeds the transformer primary.. then two legs of 120 v an a nuetral come out of it to yur house..<br /><br /><br />in 3 phase,, 3 high voltage wires feed the transformer..

 

[jlshields]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

crab bait, you're mostly correct about the 3 phase, however, here in the Midwest we often build 'open delta' power banks using 2 high side phases to 2 transformers connected 'Y' on the high side and 'delta' on the low side. If the customer also wants to use this for lighting, we will upsize one of the tubs and center tap it. <br />We also build our 'Y Delta' banks with a 'floating neutral'. If one tub fails, we isolate it, close the floating neutral cutout and 3 phase service is restored to the customer, although at 58% current capacity.<br />Just an 'Old Retired Lineman from the Midwest'<br />John

 

[crab bait]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

yeah, i talkin' about most places that really matter.. <br /><br />that's a odd way of doing it.. <br /><br />most <br />bring it in stra8 3 phase.. to a 3 phase main/distribution panel.. than branch off to transformers to make any flavor voltage the customer needs..<br /><br />just last month at the refrinery i was workin'.. i had to hook up alittle control voltage transformer .. no bigger than a fist..<br /><br /> 2160 volt incoming/primary,,, 24 volts outing/secondary.. <br /><br />blew my mind.. said to the general forman,, 'what i'm i suppose to use here,, WIRE NUTS "

 

[sangerwaker]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

--GQ--<br />While you are correct on there being two types of breakers, bolt on and plug on, you do stand to be corrected on a couple of small points.<br /><br />First, the odds of Ken having a panel that requires bolt on breakers is virtually none. The only types of panels that require them are panleboards. Not even sure they make single phase panelboards. Have you ever seen a panelboard in a residence? Or even heard of one?<br /><br />Second, I know of at least one type of panelboard that DOES accept both plug on AND bolt on breakers. Square D NQOD series panelboards.<br /><br />crab bait- what the heck do ya use on that voltage? Just curious.

 

[jlshields]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

crab bait, like Delaware does?

 

[--GQ--]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

Sangerwalker, in my many years with the IBEW i've never seen a panelboard. Plus my work doesn't go beyond the LA/Oc county area. During the real estate boom in the 80's, developers bought up all the old properties and turn them into gated communities which explain the absense of "panelbpards". Inaddition, real estate down here average 20 years newer than that of the Eastcoast or the Midwest.<br /><br />18R, i'm not seeing the whole picture. Perhaps you know something I don't. Breakers are designed to do one thing and that is... if and when current exceeds the rating of the breaker, it will shut the circuit off and to withstands a certain Ampere Interupting Capacity. <br /><br />A few decades ago Electrical Manufacture Outfits got together and established NEMA to standardize electrical equipments/devices. Breakers of the same Amp. and AIC ratings are in the same class therefore are interchangible. However manufacturers want to limit thier liability due to breakers are not stand alone units. They work inconjunction with other electrical units ( If a Murry breaker inside a GE panel blow up and burn the house down, Murry and GE are liable). So they design thier breakers smaller or larger than thier competitors to prevent mix matching.<br /><br />One important number to look at and often neglected is the AIC ratinge. All breakers in the same panel should be rated the same aswell as the panel housing them. A chain is as strong as its weakest link.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

GQ - Manf’s stds are optional. Some matter, some don’t. When a manf submits samples for evaluation they must specify the intended use of the product and if the item (in this case a circuit breaker) is common or intended for use in a specific panel/application. So a UL designation do not necessarily mean any given circuit breaker will fit in any given panel.<br /><br />Worth knowing is what is called circle UL, the UL with a circle around it, indicates the item is evaluated and approved as safe for use only as specified in the manf’s instructions. The manf’s instructions are part of the evaluation process to obtain UL approval of a product. So if a circuit breaker’s instructions say to install only in that manf’s panels, then the breaker was evaluated for safe use ONLY in that manf’s panels.<br /><br />What is called UL recognized, a UR printed backward, should NOT to be confused with UL approval. That mark indicates the item is evaluated and appears to be safe to use but there are restrictions on the item’s use. And example is a power supply for a computer. Almost impossible to find one that us UL approved (circle UL) because as the power supply sits on its own, it doesn’t meet UL’s safety stds, and there are conditions placed on its use if it to be considered safe. A typical condition is that the power supply is required to be installed in a fire-proof case, i.e. a metal computer case. UL recognized is intended for parts suppliers. UL can track the initial evaluation of an OEM manf’s power supply, like Channel Well, and see how it is installed in the final product by a diff manf of completed computers, like Dell.<br /><br />I mention this because you may come across a weird-assed circuit breaker that is UL recognized. Be aware there are restrictions on how that weird-assed breaker is to be used if it is to be considered safe, and will likely require some research to stay within the realm of those restrictions.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

My laptop power supply is Circle UL with AR under it.<br /><br />IBM Thinkpad.<br /><br />Ken

 

[KRS]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

So, what brand is your circuit breaker box... you home yet?<br /><br />The UL on your laptop cord stand for UniversalLabratories... a standardized testing facility that checks for safety of items. If you look at any power cord, chances are it's been UL tested and listed.

 

[crab bait]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

Originally posted by sangerwaker:<br /> --GQ--<br />While you are correct on there being two types of breakers, bolt on and plug on, you do stand to be corrected on a couple of small points.<br /><br />First, the odds of Ken having a panel that requires bolt on breakers is virtually none. The only types of panels that require them are panleboards. Not even sure they make single phase panelboards. Have you ever seen a panelboard in a residence? Or even heard of one?<br /><br />Second, I know of at least one type of panelboard that DOES accept both plug on AND bolt on breakers. Square D NQOD series panelboards.<br /><br />crab bait- what the heck do ya use on that voltage? Just curious.

to answer your question, i personally didn't have a clue.. <br /><br />the transformer like a said was only the size of a fist.. 2160 v to 24 v..<br /><br />the 2160 side had one small lead about 18 gauge wire.. about a foot long.. the 24 v side had 2 screw terminals like a door bell transformer..<br /><br />i did what the general forman said to do.. use a tiny split bolt on the 2160 tail .. wrap with that 'newer' yellow w/ black stripe 'rubber tape'.. real good .. ( one wrap equals a 1000 volts ) than 3m '33' tape on that.. <br /><br />his final orders was ' MAKE SURE IT'S GROUNDED GOOD.'

 

[--GQ--]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

I stand corrected AGAIN? Thats two strikes and two poofs for me. Hopefully I won't get another strike.<br /><br />Crab Bait, 2160 is considered HIGH VOLTAGE. Because electricity jumps an inch per 1000v, high voltage wires are constructed differently with many layers of rubber insulations and a layer of tin foil sandwitched in between. Special care must be taken when splicing them together. You didnt' mention any tin foil inside. Besides, 2160 to 24v step-down has no commercial applications. Its not economical.<br /><br />Just a little bit of infos. you might want to know.<br /><br />UL = Underwriters Laboratories

 

[crab bait]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

well, now third strike.. 2160 is considered medium voltage ..altho it's high volts to me . .. <br /><br />3 strikes & ball three..<br /><br /> spliced many high an medium voltage cables an a bazillian stress cones of each,,from wayback an have yet seen foil in any of them.. <br /><br />not sayin' there ain't.. <br /><br />the only 'foil wire' i've seen is fire alarm an data-com cable..<br /><br />well, maybe the ump made a bad call.. i know what you mean,, the un-foil like sharp as heck 28 gauge copper sheet metal wrap.. we call that the drain..<br /><br />yeah ,,some high/med cables have it an some don't.. but most do..<br /> <br /><br />4 strikes an 3 balls<br /><br />.. it's not 'commercial application' it's an oil refinery..

 

[jlshields]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

GQ, where did 'electricity jumps an inch per 1000V' come from? High voltage transmission lines go up to 765KV or 765,000 volts. At 1 inch per 1000V that would take a string of bells or an insulator with a BIL of more than 64 feet. A common lower transmission voltage is 69KV, it would still take an insulator with a surface more than 6 feet. <br />It is a fact though that once an arc is started, depending on conditions, humidity, barometric pressure, etc., it can draw pretty long.<br />I have seen a 12.47KV (12,000V) arc reach about 3 feet when going phase to phase, which is about 3 inches per 1000V. And it is hot enough in an instant to give you a sunburn and flash your eyes. Believe me, I've been there.<br />Old Retired Midwest Lineman

 

[ratracer]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

Originally posted by 18R:<br />

Originally posted by Fireship1:<br /> If you really want to get confusing we can bring up 3 phase power and 3 phase delta systems. Don't want to drive poor Ken crazy with all that. I think you explained it best to him Crab bait. Now we just need to find out what kind of service panel he has. Hey Ken. Off the top of my head Cutler Hammer is another brand of panel with colored handle breakers. Sound familiar at all?

Don’t know if it matters to you, when I live the code requires all circuit breakers in a panel be of the same manufacture as the panel itself. We cannot have Square D or Murray breakers in a CH panel, etc. Just because you can get a breaker to sit in a panel doesn’t mean it necessarily fits. There are small diffs that can prevent proper contact with the rails. Best thing to do is to use a breaker from the same manf as the panel.

In the late '70s while I was in school I worked inside sales for a fairly large electrical distributor, we stocked and sold most of the common residential panels/breakers at that time like Murray/Bryant/GE/C-H/Square-D/Federal Pacific/Pushmatic/Westinghouse/Crouse-Hinds etc. I think a lot of these names have since gone by the wayside.<br /><br />At that time you couldn't have for example Square-D breakers in a Murray panel, FPE in a GE, and so on because they wouldn't physically fit. However this wasn't univerally true.<br /><br />Around when this house was built Crouse-Hinds/Murray/Bryant were from memory all divisions of the same parent company. Their breakers were interchangable, you could also use Arrow-Hart,ITE, GE, and a couple of other manufacturers breakers in a Murray panel. <br /><br />The Bryants, with their color-coded switch handles, are the only ones that I remember which were color-coded by amperage rating, but because they fit in so many other manufacturers panels you really can't be sure of what the panel might be unless you looked at it. <br /><br />If I remember right, C-H used red/green color-coding so you could tell if a breaker had tripped or not. Unlike the Bryant it wasn't used to distinguish between different amperage ratings of the breakers.

 

[--GQ--]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

Originally posted by jlshields:<br /> GQ, where did 'electricity jumps an inch per 1000V' come from? High voltage transmission lines go up to 765KV or 765,000 volts. At 1 inch per 1000V that would take a string of bells or an insulator with a BIL of more than 64 feet. A common lower transmission voltage is 69KV, it would still take an insulator with a surface more than 6 feet. <br />It is a fact though that once an arc is started, depending on conditions, humidity, barometric pressure, etc., it can draw pretty long.<br />I have seen a 12.47KV (12,000V) arc reach about 3 feet when going phase to phase, which is about 3 inches per 1000V. And it is hot enough in an instant to give you a sunburn and flash your eyes. Believe me, I've been there.<br />Old Retired Midwest Lineman

 

[--GQ--]

Re: Question about circuit breakers and 220v vs 110v???

High Voltage lines you are refering to do not have insulations. And if you notice those wires are 10-15 feet apart on the transmition tower. They serve one purpose. That is to connect power plants and Oil Refineries** where availiable. The voltage is then stepped down to 2160 before entering commercial buildinds where needed. <br /><br />The "one inch per 1000v" figure is trade knowledge/Fundemental of Electricity. Tests has been done by people in the bussiness. In an ideal condition, electricity will jump an inch for every 1000v. The tin foil between the insulations serves as an arc suppression thus allowing 2160 cables to run along side each other.<br /><br />** Also known as Co-Gen. Heat/Steam generated by the process of refining oil converted back into electricity and put back onto the grid.