Question for rodbolt

rdw

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Mar 12, 2006
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6
Hi, I have 1989 Yamaha 200 with "no fire" on any plugs. Was running fine when put up about 1 month ago. Test so far are: Stator and trigger ohm out OK. Readings taken with all connections (screws)disconnected at the CDI and the 10 pin ignition harness disconnected. With everything disconnected from the CDI I get a few readings that are not to specification using the Yamaha pocket tester YU-3112 set on the 1K scale.On the Br/B and R/B tests I get approx 10K ohms instead of the 2.1 indicated in the matrix of test values. On the W/B I get 8K instead of 1.8 and on the Y/B I get 4K instead of 12. On the Br/Y I get 42K instead of 75 and on the Br/B I get 25K instead of 13. All of the other readings seem very close to the value specified in the table. Do you think that the variances I am getting here are enough to cause a "no fire" situation? I don't have any experience with this and was not sure how close the readings had to be. Thanks in advance for your help. I am very impressed with the posts you have provided on this site.<br /><br />Ron.
 

Ray Neudecker

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May 25, 2004
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Re: Question for rodbolt

The first thing to do when trouble shooting this problem is to make sure the battery is hot enough to spin the engine fast enough to start. The electronics were almost bullet proof on these engines.<br /> Charge the battery and leave the charger on and try again while monitoring the battery voltage. Also clean and check the connections to the battery and engine.<br /> I have found this to almost always be the cause of this problem with those engines and no fire.
 

rdw

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Mar 12, 2006
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Re: Question for rodbolt

Thanks Ray. I am using a brand new battery. It is both a deep cycle/starting marine battery from Wall Mart. It seems to spin the engine over very fast, but I will also charge it and try with the charger connected and check the connections/voltage at the engine. I was able to get a weak spark yesterday by setting my spark tester on 1/4 inch, but it would not fire a 7/16 inch gap and seemed intermittent when it fired the 1/4 gap. I ordered a DVA adapter for my Fluke 77 meter so I should be able to get to the bottom of this by the end of the week. I found several posts on this forum that indicated I needed this tester to further analyze the problem. I will post the results here for review as soon as the tester gets here. I am an auto mechanic and have never had a minutes trouble with this Yamaha, so I have no experience troubleshooting it. I do appreciate your assistance. Thanks again for the reply. Ron.
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
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Re: Question for rodbolt

if it sparks at all odds are the ign system is ok, are you testing spark with the plugs in or out? is this a 25" motor. a model number is a big help.<br />do you have the service specs for the DVA voltages for the stator,trigger and CDI outputs ?
 

rdw

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Mar 12, 2006
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Re: Question for rodbolt

Hi, I just went and tested again with a fully charged battery with the charger connected. The motor spins very fast. When I jumped the brown solenoid wire to spin the motor I got a steady weak spark with the tester at 1/4" gap. When I moved it to 7/16" gap the spark was very faint and intermittent. I got the same result on several of the plug wires. I am testing with all the plugs installed and all the plug wires connected except the one wire which is connected to the tester. The tester is an automotive single plug type that pushes on the plug wire on one end and has a ground clamp on the other end which I connected to one of the non-painted coil bolts. One end is threaded which allows me to set the spark gap which is viewed in a glass tube. I tested this on my 1975 Johnson and it gives a strong blue spark at 7/16" hooked up the same as I did on the Yamaha. The model # is 200ETLF. I don't have the service specs for the DVA voltages, but I did find one of your old posts here that said approx 75v and 14v for the stator and 1.6v for the trigger. It listed about 58v for the CDI outputs. I can't find any bad connections or corrosion. I believe I have the starting system isolated since both the CDI white wire and the 10 pin ignition connector are disconnected. Is there anything else that connects to the CDI that could affect spark such as oil control or temp sensor. I did check both temp sensors on the heads and neither showed continuity which is OK according to my Clymer manual. Thanks again for helping. Ron.
 

Capt Ken

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Jul 30, 2002
Messages
2,270
Re: Question for rodbolt

I'm with Rodbolt, if you get any spark the system is fine. Yamaha's aren't gonna spark like OMC's or Mercury's. Plenty fast isn't really a technical term. What may appear a good cranking speed for you may not be enough.
 

Canuck 16

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Feb 25, 2004
Messages
102
Re: Question for rodbolt

LOL I have the same motor as you, and know exactly why rodbolt is asking you if this is a 25" motor ( which it is).<br />Answer his simple question, and he will tell you exactly where to look.<br />May have nothing to do with your electrical system!<br /><br />Cheers... Canuck16.
 

rdw

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Mar 12, 2006
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Re: Question for rodbolt

OK, how do I check to see if I have a 25" motor.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Question for rodbolt

no worries. the 25" motor has a bushing above the waterpump area in the midsection that has backflipped many techs.<br /> the etlf really does not correspond to the alpha designations.<br /> however its rather inconseqential as the L usually designates 20" and an X will desigignate 25".<br /> however the fact you have spark tells me the trigger circuits are working, now we have to find the voltage loss,if any, on the CDI capacitor charge/discharge circuits.<br />if you motor has been upgraded or has factory installed red spark plug caps remove and test them.<br /> test the low spped charge coils for proper resistanceBr-R 1050 ohms then test each leg Br-ground and R to ground for any continuity, resistance should be infinite(open circuit) the test the high speed coilsBlue to Br/R 24ohms and test each leg to ground. the output voltage loaded at cranking sp3ed should be about 75V low speed and 14 high speed, unloaded will be 85 and 14. the CDI must be loaded to test the output, loaded cranking with a spark tester should be 58V loaded and 0V unloaded. all V tests must be done with a PEAK reading type meter or with the DVA adapter.<br />the coil secondary resistance, red caps removed, should be 3.8Kohms, red cap resistance is 5Kohms.<br /> the system is fairly simple. it consists of a rotating magnet(flywheel) creating an ac current wich is recitified and stored in a capacitor, the flywheel inner magnet creates an ac voltage which is used to turn the SCR to the on state allowing the capacitor to discharge through the ign coil primary windings. as its sparking and the fact the trigger circuits have no affect on CDI output voltage I would say the trigger circuits are ok. carfully test all CDI and battery grounds. you really need to make or buy a spark tester capeable of testing all 6 at once. I have posted several times on how to make a cheap easy tester at home. DO NOT use carbon plug wires for your homemade tester. use steel core.<br /> that motor may or may not jump a 7/16ths gap at cranking speed, the 90 up models have the CDI output increased to 105V, at the 84-89 75V output it gets iffy, the system quits at about 65V CDI output. does not allow much room for degradation.<br /> but try testing all with the plugs out, if it improves look for slow cranking speeds due to starter circuit degradation or starter brush wear, its also possible the flywheel magnets are getting weak. the old ear test sometimes fools ya on cranking speeds.<br />many motors sound good and will pass a spark test with all plugs removed but fail the test with the plugs installed. has bit many a tech.<br />but its imperative to test all six at once.<br />do the test with plugs in and plugs out to see if the results change.<br />if there is a significant improvement with the plugs out look for stater circuit,not starter acutating, issues.<br />means a voltage drop test. not just a battery voltage test.<br />from the engine block to the -batt terminal,not cable end, should be less than 1Vdc and from the starter terminal to the +batt terminal,not cable end, should be less than 1Vdc any other results mean ya gotta go hunt. if battery voltage across the terminals drops below about 10.5 Vdc look at the battery. use the 6 spark spark tester with the plugs installed and the sparktester attached for all cranking tests. you always want to control spark when any cranking tests are performed as the fuel/air mix expelled from the plug hole is a chemically correct mix that an errant spark can and, occasinally does, ignite.<br />EFI motors are notorious for it as some of the PRIME start yammies.<br /> its funny to watch a tech with his hairs aflame :) :) .
 

Canuck 16

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Feb 25, 2004
Messages
102
Re: Question for rodbolt

oooops! my bad.<br />Right again rodbolt, I just went out and checked my motor and it is a ETXF model.<br />Sorry rdw, your symptoms sure sounded like that driveshaft bushing starting to self destruct.<br /><br />Cheers... Canuck16.
 

rdw

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Mar 12, 2006
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Re: Question for rodbolt

Thanks Rodbolt and everyone. I will make the spark tester and the DVA adapter should be here in a few days. Will do all the above tests and post the results. Thanks again, Ron.
 

Ray Neudecker

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Re: Question for rodbolt

On those pre 90 models, I use a timing light to check fire.If it shows fire there and the complaint is won't start, I then spray some fuel in the carbs and try that and usually they will start. I never had those models to trouble shoot well with a spark testor. They won't jump a 7/16 gap. My experience has been if they will fire the timing light on all six cylinders, forget the electronics and move on.<br /> I have literally storage containers full of those electronics from motors I have salvaged for parts. My number one customers for them are for OMC people to convert over to Yamaha electronics. I have sold a few CDI boxes to people who hooked up the battery wrong and a couple of rectifiers in the last twenty years. Even a stator replacement has been rare and you lost two cylinders when they went bad.<br /> I have seen some mechanics drive them self crazy on those model electrics. The book was wrong on some of the electrical readings to add to the confusion. My basic rule for years on those models has been if it fired a timing light, forget the electricals and go elsewhere.<br /> If it didn't look for an external reason why such as connections, switch or kill switch. Good Luck and keep us posted.
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
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Re: Question for rodbolt

ray, thats why I bought a Kv tester :) . I can then tell ya what the firing voltage is.<br /> the 84-89 motors ran such a low primary voltage that I have found a 3/8ths gap is about all I can reliably get with it. in 1990 the primary voltage was stepped up to 105V and it worked better.<br /> but stator,trigger and CDI failures are very rare.<br /> in the past 30 years or so I could take all the yamaha ign electrical components I have seen bad and put them in a hand bag and walk away, would take a couple pickup trucks to do the same with OMC and merc.
 

Ray Neudecker

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May 25, 2004
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1,656
Re: Question for rodbolt

Hey Rodbolt, I bought a fresh water Excell block the other day that had so little time on it the exhaust divider bolts were still shiny and the rubber grommets looked brand new in bottom of the block. E mail me at neudecray@hotmail.com if you are interested in it. It is not for sale to anyone else, in case they are eavesdropping.
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
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Re: Question for rodbolt

ok, ill shoot ya a line tonight. I am definatly in the market for one.
 

rdw

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Joined
Mar 12, 2006
Messages
6
Re: Question for rodbolt

Thanks guys, It's FIXED!!!! And you were right. The problem was a voltage drop which was causing the weak spark. I followed your advice and cleaned up all the connections at the engine (even though they looked OK they were not) and it started right up. Thanks again.
 
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