Question regarding pressurized tank?

[KathyD19]

Still trying to figure out why I can't get this engine started. It's a 1956 Johnson Javelin 30 hp. When I bought it, the seller showed it working but I haven't been able to get it to fire up since I brought it home. I replaced spark plugs but that didn't help. Seller had a tank with it that she said had a fuel pump added to it but she couldn't seem to get it to run so in order to show me that the motor did work, she took the fuel line off of the can and poured fuel, via funnel, straight into the line..it ran. I have an old original metal gas can (from a 1965 Mercury engine) with the squeeze bulb in the line that advances the fuel. I had checked the tank to be sure there wasn't any rust or corrosion inside and decided to use it instead of the non-working fuel pump can she gave me. Now I'm wondering if that may be the problem? I've been researching this all night and see that this motor has a dual fuel line which requires a pressurized can. Is the old Mercury can with the pump bulb considered pressurized? When I squeeze the bulb, the fuel filter in the line to the motor fills with fuel and stays there rather than going back to the can so I assumed that the motor would be able to draw it in? And one more thing, for safety's sake: if I've done this wrong and shouldn't have used that tank, is it ok to open the lid on the tank or has pressured built up in there? I don't want the thing popping off at me whenever I go to detach it from the motor and/or open the gas can to pour out the fuel! (my hubby got a very bad burn from a gasoline fire...I'm still very respectful of it!)

 

[BonairII]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

The tank won't build up enough pressure to cause any problems.

If the tank has 2 lines it's a pressurized tank. A line from the crankcase feeds air to the fuel tank(pressurizing it) and the other line is where the fuel flows to the carb.

The tank with the bulb(I'm assuming it's a single line) is NOT pressurized.

Many people convert their old motors to a single line tank and add a fuel pump to their motors.

 

[F_R]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

Check the hose on that pressure tank. Does it connect fuel to fuel and air to air at both ends? Since she had it off, it is suspect. It can't run if reversed (fuel to air).

EDIT: Also, while you are at it, depress the fuel side check valve at the connector, and pump the primer on the tank. Does it squirt gas out? It should.

 

[KathyD19]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

I'm attaching some pictures to help show the tanks in question: first two are of the tank the seller gave me with the (non-working) fuel pump. Next picture is my tank I was using with the in line squeeze bulb. The 4th picture is of where the fuel line attaches to the engine. There appears to be only one fuel line so does this mean it does NOT require a pres. tank? If not, why did the seller have a fuel pump in the tank she used it with? Will pumping my in line bulb be enough to get the gas going and stay going?

 

[Georgesalmon]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

What do the wires go to on the tank you got with the engine? Looks like someone cobbled up something in that tank. It's not a factory setup. I'm wondering of they put an automotive 12v fuel pump in there. Your tank with the bulb won't work unless you pump the bulb all the time to push gas into the engine.

 

[KathyD19]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?



The wires go to a toggle power switch (first one on the left of the three switches on the added on panel). The toggle is supposed to be turned on to give power to the in-tank pump but it has never run since I got it. So you're saying that even with it being a single fuel line rather than the double air/gas pressurized line, that I still need some kind of method of pumping the fuel to the motor? Another poster told me that it's dangerous to have an electric fuel pump on an outboard motor. So what do I need to use to get the fuel going?

 

[HighTrim]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

I sent you an email in response to your PM, with wiring diagrams attached.

Now, get rid of that 12V fuel pump wired to the tank. It is dangerous, and plain silly.

Here is your problem. The fool (previous owner ) has it set up to run on a single line setup, BUT using the cobbled fuel pump which you cannot use. SO, here are your options.

Get a proper fuel pump, and run it on a single line tank. This would involve little as some of the work is done. You will need to either get a fuel pump and bypass cover from a later model motor, swap it with your bypass cover, plug the old pressure line (which may already be done), and route the lines. Im not sure what he cobbled under the cowl, so post pics of that so we know what we are dealing with.

OR

Unplug the pressure line if plugged, swap the motor side connector to a 2 line connector, and run a pressure tank as it was originally run on.

Let us know what you want to do and we can help with how to proceed.

 

[Lakeshadow]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

The pressure delivered to a pressure fuel tank is compression pressure. The crank case can only offer vacuum.

I'm not a salty dog at boating but I'm an excellent fabricator. I don't recognize that outboard, yet it looks like the 33 h.p. Ski-Twin that accepts a single line primer bulb fuel line get up. By the photos you reveal all I can say is that neither gas tank is a pressure tank.

Check and confirm which fuel system that outboard requires then collect hardware from there.

Follow exploded view pic's and factory bulletins. Don't deviate form factory set-ups.



Hello, I'm Lakeshadow

 

[nwcove]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

quote "The pressure delivered to a pressure fuel tank is compression pressure. The crank case can only offer vacuum."

with all do respect, if thats the case please explain how a diaphragm pump gets its pulse? and i do agree with you about the tanks....none are pressure tanks. and to the op, please dispose of that tank with the wires running into it!!! that thing is a bomb waiting to explode.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

The pressure delivered to a pressure fuel tank is compression pressure. The crank case can only offer vacuum.

I'm not a salty dog at boating but I'm an excellent fabricator. I don't recognize that outboard, yet it looks like the 33 h.p. Ski-Twin that accepts a single line primer bulb fuel line get up. By the photos you reveal all I can say is that neither gas tank is a pressure tank.

Check and confirm which fuel system that outboard requires then collect hardware from there.

Follow exploded view pic's and factory bulletins. Don't deviate form factory set-ups.



Hello, I'm Lakeshadow

Sorry, but going to have to disagree with some of that.

The 33hp is based on the older 35hp, the newer 28hp is based on her 30hp Javelin.

"Dont deviate from factory setups" You work for BRP? lol

 

[BonairII]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

please dispose of that tank with the wires running into it!!! that thing is a bomb waiting to explode.

In in favor of the OP disposing of ALL of those tanks. Old tanks are bound to start throwing debris(dried fuel, rust, etc) down the fuel line and foul the carbs.

Buy a couple brand new plastic portable fuel tanks.

 

[Willyclay]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

Buy a couple brand new plastic portable fuel tanks.

While I do not disagree with this recommendation, I have heard from others who have purchased new plastic tanks since 01/01/2012 that they have experienced fuel starvation caused by the EPA-compliant "self-venting" cap. Another hoop to jump through!

 

[BonairII]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

While I do not disagree with this recommendation, I have heard from others who have purchased new plastic tanks since 01/01/2012 that they have experienced fuel starvation caused by the EPA-compliant "self-venting" cap. Another hoop to jump through!

Not familiar with the new "self venting" caps. What seems to be wrong with the design of the new cap?

I would imagine that they could be modified(drill a hole in the cap?) to ensure that fuel starvation never occurs.

 

[KathyD19]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

Ok, ok, you guys have made me scared to death of the gas tank bomb sitting in my yard! It's gone tomorrow! (if I can figure out what to do with it). Now I'm thanking my lucky stars that the fuel pump in it never would run for me...that's some scary stuff. I don't know why I didn't think about how dangerous electricity plus gas was. I actually was concerned about the proximity of the battery to the gas tank, being that they are both in the rear of the boat in order to reach the motor. That's not a concern?
Do they still make new pressurized gas tanks? I'm planning on going that route and was going to look for a used metal one but if they make new ones I'd look into that. If anyone out here has an old pres.one in good shape. let me know if you'd like to sell it and how much (or trade for my vintage Merc. one with fittings and hoses). My brain is overflowing with all the information I've learned today. I'm amazed and so grateful to everyone who has taken the time to help me!

 

[Lakeshadow]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

Hi Kathy,

Don't throw anything vintage away please! This community will probably offer an arrangement to you if you would go through the trouble to send things to a far away person....

Let me elaborate. I would not scrap that tank with the wires gooped through the alloy cover. I would remove the wires, tap the holes in far enough to make set screws get stuck, then permanently glue the set screws in with liquid steel or equivelant. Thus rendering the gas tank safe to use as intended and proven by the smart guys at OMC long ago..... lol....

I was standing in the parking lot of Haywards here looking down at the boats there with the tanks right there in back with a battery there also. Boats starting with electric start and bikinis and no problems.... As for me I'm putting my tank and battery at the bow, for weight distribution purposes only. Besides, the tank was there when I got the boat.

Plastic tanks are all primer bulb, not pressureized. Pressurized tanks are a thing of the way distant past. I would almost conclude that those tanks are an embarrassment to OMC. The visual of some old smoker forgetting about that lit cigarette and fuming the immediate area with gas vapor while unscrewing the cap.... Yet with no suction at the pick-up ick goo and rust chunks would not clog a screen.

Take your time Kathy. Reveal to us the model number and serial number of your outboard engine. People here want to hear of and see you succeed.

 

[Lakeshadow]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

I woke up today all distressed thinking you may have an older pressure gas tank engine that has been converted to the single line vacuum pulse fuel pump. Here we go again with the tech discrepancy..... They're called fuel pumps yet they are mounted on the outboard, so they suck the fuel up to the engine, ha ha....

That fuel line fitting on the outboard side looks like an old salty dog yet the fitting on the gas tank side looks like one of those new plastic copy's I seen at Wall-Mart. I bought two of them.

I would like to see a couple pics of the outboard with the hood off. Show the fuel line plumbing under there.

I hear of converting pressure tanks and outboards to suction but I have not done it.

I'll say again, I'm not a salty dog at boating but I'm a darn good fabricator. I think I should comment when I think I know something pertaining to fuel delivery staying in line with this thread title.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

She does not have a fuel pump. The previous owner used that "bomb" to pump the fuel to the motor. The only mods done were swapping the fuel connector and plugging the old pressure line. Her options now are to swap back to a double line connector and use an appropriate pressure tank OR install a proper fuel pump and run a single line setup. The easier route would be to simply go back to a pressure tank setup.

 

[KathyD19]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

Thank you Lakeshadow for your concern and to everyone for their advice. After consulting with several boat knowledgeable people, the majority is in favor of me going "retro" and returning the motor to it's original dual fuel line with the pres. tank. No worries about anyone smoking near it, Lakeshadow...no one in our family or our friends smoke!
Today I was fortunate to find an old pressurized tank with the appropriate fitting for the motor side! (only $40 when I see them on ebay for much more plus shipping!) I went to a nearby marine mechanic who is highly regarded in this area (but doesn't work on anything older than 1980) and I was showing him pictures of the motor and telling him what I'd done and what I need to do. When he put the fitting on the tank end I asked how I'd know which of the tubes goes to the fuel and which goes to engine for the air and he said it wouldn't matter which one since one was just pushing air in and the other was carrying fuel back out. But I said that it DID matter and he cleaned some dirt off the tank top and said, "You're right! It's marked here which is the air side and which is the fuel. You know more about this engine than I do!" Hahaha! Which one of you said I'd be a master marine mechanic by weeks end?? Can't tell you how good that made me feel to hear a seasoned professional tell me I knew what I was talking about. Of course, I give total credit to everyone on this board! I am going to clean the tank up a bit, it's rather dusty, and transfer the fuel I had mixed up in the other tank and I may get around to hooking up the pres. tank and trying it out tonight, fingers crossed!!! If not tonight, I'll definitely try it out tomorrow. Since I feel like I'm making progress, I am looking ahead to the next step assuming I'll get the motor to run. I need to find a remote control box that will work with this motor. There are a couple on ebay and I want to be sure they will work with this one. I'll post the link on here and if anyone can chime in and let me know if it will work, I"ll bid on it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221079871745?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648

 

[HighTrim]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

Told you you'd be a master marine mechanic by weeks end, lol!

Those controls will work fine. You can also post a wanted ad at aomci.org in the webvertize, one of the antique outboard club members in your area will be able to help you out. Id send you a set, but the shipping would be too much.

Did you get a new connector for your motor? You will need to put the old 2 line tank connector back on. If you need one, send me another email.

 

[Lakeshadow]

Re: Question regarding pressurized tank?

This one I found will work for you as it is for me, you can go more modern than this yet I fell for the brass.

The cut off year when cable ends got more modern and cant be used slips my mind....like '77 8 9 or so...

I believe the cables I bought were 11 feet also, guessed best I could for a 13.5' Indian canoe... lol.

Great Thread.

P.S.

If with anything you get picky, be picky with your fuel system.