Questions about Ethonol

[mrallen007]

I'm having some performance related problems. I'm having issues getting the engine to fire and even more issues keeping it running. I'm planning to take it in and get it serviced, but I'm also trying to make sure I cover all the bases I can.

I'm told it's bad to run fuel with ethanol through an outboard. I live in the middle of the Dallas area and the EPA mandates all fuel be sold with some degree of ethanol. Is there any fuel treatment any of you use specifically to counter the effects of ethanol? Or is it really not that big of a deal after all?

I'm not new to boating, but I am new to ownership. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

We've been using E10 here for almost two decades and for the most part there aren't really any issues. When you first start using it it will clean your fuel system out very well, this can be a problem if there's a bunch of gunk in the tank because it may plug your carb(s) and/or filters up a bit. You didn't say the age or type of motor you have, but since the late 80s the components have been ethanol resistant, so if you haven't rebuilt your carb or replaced the fuel lines since then its way over due anyhow.

There are no miracle elixirs that prevent all possible issues with E10, even though many companies sell products that may in some way help, they don't prevent phase separation which is the real problem that can cause costly damage.

There may also be a problem if the state you're in hasn't banned MTBE, when MTBE and ethanol mix with water they can turn to a goo that will plug things up.

 

[109jb]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

Like was already posted, here in Illinois where i live we have had e-10 for many many years and I have not experienced any problems with using in my outboards. My currnt outboard is a 1999 Mariner 115 hp and before that I had a 198? johnson 65 hp 3 cylinder and a 1976 Johnson 70 hp 3 cylinder. Never had any problems I could attribute to running e-10.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

the govt mandated marine technician stimulous package has been wonderful here on the east coast.
if the engine and entire fuel system was new and you keep your fuel stabilized with every tank and turn it over completly every 3 months minimum. you wont have many issues.
other than that stand by.
you will get to see the marine tech govt stimulous program in action.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

This article tells about the effects of E-10 phase separation and what it can do to your outboard motor:

http://www.trailerboats.com/output.cfm?id=2342377&sectionid=317

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Questions about Ethanol

Re: Questions about Ethanol

the govt mandated marine technician stimulus package has been wonderful here on the east coast.

Funniest line for the week

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

From looking into it a bit, states that have been on E10 for an extended period of time don't have that many problems, but in states or regions that are new to it, there?s sort of a double whammy.

1 The gas stations and all vehicles have been on good old straight fuel for a very long time, so whatever gunk builds up in their systems is cleaned out by the ethanol. Even though the gas stations are supposed to clean their tanks before switching, there are still problems. These new stations are still rookies to the ethanol game, so they may not be up snuff on how to correctly store and handle it.

2 Many states haven't banned the use of MTBE, it does the same thing as ethanol, but has been known to contaminate ground water, so its slowly being phased out. The problem is MTBE, ethanol, plus a little water can create a goo that can plug things up, so when you buy fuel at different locations they can easily be mixed in the tank.

Locally, Washington State banned MTBE a long time ago and has been on E10 for about 20 years, at first it was seasonal and regional, then it became every where and all year. Oregon just mandated E10 a year or so ago and still allowed MTBE to be sold and the Oregon forums are lit up with issues and panic, while the WA side of the border continues along with far fewer problems.

I will say on a recent trip I filled up my boat in Oregon and it ran terrible on that tank, it wasn?t until I filled it up at home and ran enough new gas through it that it cleared up. So there can be issues during the transition and each gas station may have problems for a while, especially if they still allow MTBE. This problem may have had nothing to do with E10, but?..

From what I could tell, FL and a few other states in that region still allow MTBE, but states that report fewer issues like Minnesota and Washington, banned MTBE quite some time ago, plus they?ve been on E10 for a comparatively long time.

 

[RicMic]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

Part of the problem is that even for engines which are required to be OK with E10, there is no guarantee that E10 is what you getting. Actually tests at stations have come up with ratios up to 30% or E30. If you have an engine problem and the manufacturer determines that the cause was more than 10% ethanol, they can void your warranty and good luck collecting from the gas station or anyone else. I have had several fuel systems on small engines destroyed by ethanol and no not all systems since the 80's are E-10 proof. Alcohol absorbs water, so the first time you put ethanol in the tank, its going to suck a lot of water with it that used just lay at the bottom of the tank. I have a recent models Honda and Mercury outboards and they both recommend NOT using ethanol if possible and to use fuel stabilizer if you do. The good news is that the whole scam that is ethanol may get worse, the providers of ethanol are pushing for approval of E15 and the decision has been postponed several times already.

 

[cannonford57]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

thanks rodbolt for setting me straight.being a hydroautomotive technician (boat mechanic)...here in upstate sc,i thought all the tiny specs i've been cleaning outa fuel systems,shoot we just call it gnat poo here, was the work of some higher power.now i find out its all part of our saviors stimulis package to help all of us who get up every day,put on our big boy britches,and try to make something happen.....gosh, what a great country we liv....no we survive in...and they charge us 2.50 a gallon (i know its more there)for this junk they pump up of the ground.amazes me how some of it burns ...ok,soapbox put away...good night all.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

BTW - running E10 will not void a manufacturers warranty. The engine warranty will not cover ethanol damage but it will not void a warranty. That would be like saying if you run ethanol they won't cover a lower unit or power trim failure.

There are indications around here that there is more than 10% in our fuel. About 80% (probably more) of what we do in the shop has to do with ethanol related issues. Either fixing damage or doing preventative work.

 

['96 Charger]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

My pro-v 200 has one helluva "lean sneeze" on startup when ethanol is in the lines. Sounds like it has the flu. Can't get it off the trailer without having to restart it at least twice. With ethanol free it's smooth sailing for the most part. I keep telling everyone I know to run ethanol free since it's available here at a select couple stations but they like learning things the hard way

 

[JustJason]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

I don't know that the ell the above rant is all about, but it certainly is not constructive to this thread.

The fact of the matter is... gas is gas. It all works fine as long as treat it like milk. Don't buy it if you don't plan to use it. If you use it when it's spoiled then you'll have problems. Engine, carb, or gastrointestonal..

Regular gasoline had/has it's share of problems when it gets old.
Ethanol fuel has it's share of problems when it gets old too.

Either fuel will give you problems if you don't use it. They just give you different problems.

 

['96 Charger]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

I don't know that the ell the above rant is all about, but it certainly is not constructive to this thread.

The fact of the matter is... gas is gas. It all works fine as long as treat it like milk. Don't buy it if you don't plan to use it. If you use it when it's spoiled then you'll have problems. Engine, carb, or gastrointestonal..

Regular gasoline had/has it's share of problems when it gets old.
Ethanol fuel has it's share of problems when it gets old too.

Either fuel will give you problems if you don't use it. They just give you different problems.

You obviously have never had a picky motor. Some of them even with fresh e10 just a few minutes from the pump don't want to run right. If you want something constructive, SAY NO TO ETHANOL unless your engine tells you it's comfortable running on it. I can promise you all the ethanol related repairs the shops are doing is easy money for them.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

This is a never ending discussion. Those of us who don't have an issue with it will continue to use it. Those who don't use it will continue to post about what might happen. Those who have had problems should be very careful who they believe. Uninformed techs are very quick to blame ethanol when it may not have had anything to do with the issue. Others on the coast where very large boats with very large tanks that see limited use can indeed have issues. For optimum protection regardless what fuel you use, add a water separating fuel filter, treat the fuel and go boating.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

silvertip
you and I have butted heads over this a few times.
now I gotta ask.
how many boats do YOU deal with that hold over 100 gallons?
my seapro holds 65, my hydrasport holds 36, my albemarle holds 245.
all I deal with mostly is v6,twins,triples and over 200 gallon tanks.
dunno where your from but here it equals bad juju.
but, I love the govt marine stimulous program.
yes the old blended fuel went bad, delt with it almost 30 years, but this new fuel blend is nasty.
ethanol belongs in my tumbler with a bit of ice, buy decent ethanol and NO mixer is needed.
nothing like some Santa Theresa 1796 over ice.
so tell me, what size fuel tanks do you deal with on a day to day basis?
and yes like OMC's VRO debacale in the early 80's, a lot of it gets blamed on the WRONG issue.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

and yes like OMC's VRO debacale in the early 80's, a lot of it gets blamed on the WRONG issue.

Well put.

We just delt with a Merc Pro XS that's under warranty and the boat fuel lines were all coming apart on the inside. He's a non ethanol beliver now.

My 150 Yamaha (carb'd) will turn about 5400 on E10 and 5700 on E10 treated with Gas Shock.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

No problem, I understand that some folks who don't know what we do can be doubtful of our testing methods. We do in fact run 2 tanks when testing fuel. We also use flow meters, EGT gauges and a GPS. When we first tested gas addatives we tested not only with different boats and motors but in several different autos. We have done all sorts of testing for OMC in the past and still test products for aftermarket companies and a prop manufacturer.

The note about the fuel addative was kind of thinking out loud. We know that ethanol robs a few rpm and have found that this addative in e10 brings back those rpm.

 

[itsaboattime]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

Never had issues with ethenol.
I replaced my fuel lines when I rebuilt my carbs. Water separator in-line.
I got a feeling this debate is gonna last a loooooong time.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

You obviously have never had a picky motor. Some of them even with fresh e10 just a few minutes from the pump don't want to run right. If you want something constructive, SAY NO TO ETHANOL

Well, all the motors I work on are picky. They are so picky the owners call the mechanic to come look. The engines aren't picky because of the fuel itself. They are picky because the fuel has done something to hurt the fuel system, of because of other issues all together. Sometimes, it's a combination of many things. So it's not all just "ethanol". It's owners who don't understand ethanol. Treat it like milk, and you'll have no problems.

As Dhadley states, ethanol can rob a few hundred RPMS. It really only does it on the newer, high tech, 2 strokes. It does it because the BTU output of ethanal gas is a little less than non ethanol. Less BTU's means less power and rpms. But it's only on the high end of high reving outboard engines with direct injection. Engines that are already running lean by design to start with. But they still rev withing their operating range.

Like i said before. Both types of fuel will spoil. Ethanol does spoil quicker and for different reasons than regular gas. So if you don't need it, don't buy it. If your fuel tank holds 200 gallons but your only going out for a day. Put 50 gallons in it.

The engines will run fine as long as your fuel is fresh and filtered and you keep up with all of the maintenence on the engine.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Questions about Ethonol

Theboatorme.
ya kinda got a bit harsh, I understand cause I drink and keyboard.
but on this one your way off base.
the govt marine tech stimulous package has been well known here in my area for about 2 years now.
the older mercury and sierra silverado fuel lines, and some others, simply dissolve the inner liner even though it states on the hose "alcohol RESISTANT".
had a wrist watch once that stated "water RESISTANT" meant as long as you did not sweat it would not die.
its not that the engine,new, cannot tolerate the stimulous fuel, its the rest of the fuel system.
then it leads to blown pistons and stuck valves.
cant wait for E-15 and E-25 stimulous fuels.

I have a house payment and need the extra cash.