Reapply gelcoat to hull?

aussieflash

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
1,004
G'day bought a 86 Haines Hunter last year.Gelcoat is wearing thin in places.Is it possible to re do the gelcoat on the hull via spraying or am I dreaming?
 

Cadwelder

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
1,780
Re: Reapply gelcoat to hull?

Not dreaming at all....it can be done, but why don't you just paint it?
 

Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
5,581
Re: Reapply gelcoat to hull?

I dont know the laws down under .. but some have already done full sprays in gel in your local :) .. Sure you can paint..but remember pros and cons about paint vs. gel :) ...

YD.
 

aussieflash

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
1,004
Re: Reapply gelcoat to hull?

Definitely prefer gelcoat over paint.What would be the best way to apply gel? brush,roller or spray.Do I apply just one layer or multiple.Any links on this procedure?
 

Cadwelder

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
1,780
Re: Reapply gelcoat to hull?

Yacht Dr. and Ondarvr are the local gel experts. I can tell you that the best application method is spraying it. But gelcoat is a lot of work, hence the reason I suggested paint. I pesonally don't see the benifets of it over a good quailty paint job. But it's been done many times here.

Good Luck and hopefully Yacht Dr. or Ondarvr will chime back in here.
 

BWT

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
363
Re: Reapply gelcoat to hull?

If you're looking to spray the gel, I would seriously consider looking into a product from Duratec (their high gloss additive). I've been using this product in all of my gel jobs for a few years (well over 500 repair jobs with this product) and personally have nothing but good things to say about it. I mix it with my gel 50/50 and catalize at 2%. Here's why I like it:

- While it does thin the gel to a perfect spray consistency (not quite that of paint, but enough that it does spray pretty flat making the orange peel pretty minimal) it is not a "traditional" thinner in that it evaporates; it's a reactive thinner so that it cures with the gelcoat. It can also be used as a clear coat by itself. I turn the air pressure on my gun to about 40PSI and cut back the flow of the gel so that I am able to get good atomization minimizing orange peel. It's still there, but much less than spraying a thicker (splatter) type application. Give multiple coats wet on wet until a proper thickness is achieved; usually a minute or two between coats.

- It eliminates the need for PVA or wax additive to allow the gel to fully cure. After it's sprayed and cured it can be dry sanded without the paper getting clogged (all you get is a nice dry powder). Obviously the finer grits need to be wet sanded.

- Although it has a reddish tint in the can it cures water clear and does not alter the color of the gelcoat at all.

- When mixed with the gel, the result is a harder surface allowing it to be polished to a little higher gloss. It's not a night and day difference, but it is noticeable. Now some may argue that harder = more brittle and to a point they would be correct. However, as long as the gel isn't too thick I have not had any issues with this. Any gelcoat that is too thick will be brittle and crack.

- Because it's mixed 50/50 with the gel, it essentially doubles the amount of gelcoat that you have.

Just my 2 cents...
 

Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
5,581
Re: Reapply gelcoat to hull?

If you're looking to spray the gel, I would seriously consider looking into a product from Duratec (their high gloss additive). I've been using this product in all of my gel jobs for a few years (well over 500 repair jobs with this product) and personally have nothing but good things to say about it. I mix it with my gel 50/50 and catalize at 2%.

- Because it's mixed 50/50 with the gel, it essentially doubles the amount of gelcoat that you have.

Yes..but a first off mix of 50/50 will make it more transparent ( You wouldnt want to do that with reds or blues unless your base repair is done with the same gelmatched color paste before you spray ).

Even spraying some whites could be Very transparent with a 50/50 mix..meaning more spray and build-up.

I love the Duratec clear when blending hard to match older gelcoat colors..I mix with 20% on the first pass .. then bring it up to 30% on the 2nd pass ( going out further ) .. then the final coat is 50-50 ( 50% ) extending the spray even further. This helps with "blending" .

Its all in application parameters personally. I use patch aid for small repairs on newer boats ( Yes you can use Duratec as well ).

And I agree on using dry paper to sand the gelcoat after the spray .. You can even D/A with 600 dry and buff it out ( No wet sanding needed ). I only wet sand inside radi and corners.

Check this thread out .. even PM MB17 on tips for a first timer full spray :) http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=465692

Regards YD.
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: Reapply gelcoat to hull?

Duratec comes up frequently and it can do ?some? things very well, but used at anywhere near the 50/50 mix they recommend it can have a few very adverse effects on a gel coat finish.

Gel coat relies almost 100% on pigments for UV protection and by reducing the pigment loading by only a few % weathering properties can be noticeably reduced. So when adding 100% (50/50 blend) by volume of Duratec you have dramatically affected the UV resistance of the gel coat. What you end up with is premature yellowing and a possible loss of gloss. The look of the color will also change as you add Duratec, the more you add the more it will change the look, so be careful when changing the amount added in each layer.

Water resistance is also affected by Duratec, so using this type of mix below the waterline will shorten the life of the refinish job.

What it will do is make the product spray and level better which make the job easier up front. It may also increase the gloss of the final product because pigments and fillers don?t buff to as high of a gloss that straight resin will and by adding the Duratec you reduced both pigment and filler.

Like everything else in life it?s a trade off, this time between ease of application and ultimate long term performance of the finish.

If you keep the boat (or whatever was refinished) out of the sun and covered, plus don?t leave it in the water for long periods of time, the results may be OK and the trade off worth it.
 

Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
5,581
Re: Reapply gelcoat to hull?

I Agree ^ .

I try to keep my gelcoat as "UNMIXED" or unthinned as possible.

But some gels come thin enough to almost spray without thinning..others are like paste requiring more thinning.

As far as retention in UV levels and so on..its impossible to apply a gel repair in the exact nature as the Airless gel gun application from the factory in the mold.

Its a repair..

There is another thing about gel repairs..matching the color. Looks good right now..but how about in 3 months ? You paid the guy to repair and all looks good .. but in 3 months you have a bullseye repair that faded and post cured/faded.

Some repairs ( mostly older boats ) I will Miss-match slightly off color to have it "swing" to the color of the faded gel in a few months. *Trick*

Good gel repairs are a science and discussion with the owner. They want it Spot on Right now..then cool. If they want it Spot on for years to come..there going to have to wait till that gel swings over to the right color ( its like prematching and Knowing where the gel will swing in color when custom color matching ).

YD ;)
 

BWT

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
363
Re: Reapply gelcoat to hull?

Hey YD and ondarvr, thanks for weighing in on this; I believe you both bring up good points regarding the duratec product. I can tell that this is a bit of a hot topic in this forum and I would like to comment a little further. Although the manufacturer states that a 1:1 ratio works well (and in most cases it does) it does have it's limitations. Because it is essentially thinning out the pigment levels it does make it more transparent on skim coats. I personally only recommend this ratio when working with whites and creams as you're starting out with a white base which has a high pigment level to begin with. When working with dark colors (reds, blues, greens, etc) the starting base is neutral (essentially clear and un-pigmented) and by nature is more transparent than a white base of the same thickness. This is why gel repairs on dark colors can be much more difficult, as more often than not there is slight blotchy-ness throughout the hull from the manufacturer (as the gel layer gets thinner it becomes a lighter shade). As far as this level of transparency when mixed with whites requiring excessive buildup to achieve coverage I haven't run into this. Playing devil's advocate a bit, A highly pigmented gelcoat can achieve complete coverage with thin coats (often coats that are too thin to fully cure) and that itself can cause issues with color, gloss and waterproofing degradation. Personally I've found that when using the Duratec 1:1 mix (with whites) although it does require a little more layup compared to an un-thinned mix, by the time you have complete coverage over the repair you also have a proper level of buildup for a complete cure.

As far as a loss of UV protection from using this product I guess I can't definitively say one way or the other; what I can comment on is that I have not had an issue with fading or bleaching or yellowing of a repair even after a few years of direct sun exposure (at least in our region where the boats are in the water and sun 6 months of the year and covered in snow the other 6 months; it very well could be an issue in southern areas that get hit year'round). One further thought I do have on the UV issue is that what it may lose in protection from displaced pigments it may make up for it with a higher gloss and a less porous surface. Much like varnish, a mirror finish is able to reflect the UV rather than absorb; this is a bit of speculation on my part.

In reality, a book could be written on all the nuances, trade-off's and considerations that need to be taken into consideration when working with gelcoat. By no means do I claim to know ALL there is to know about the topic, but I have had quite a bit of experience and trial and error experiments with the stuff. A professional should be aware of these things (and the good ones are; there is no doubt that the above post'ers are experts on the topic and truly know their stuff!) ** However, for the sake of someone trying to learn the tricks of the trade as they are doing the repairs themselves (often for the first time) I still stand by my recommendation for the Duratec product. Yes, like ondarvr said there are trade off's, however in my humble opinion I believe that more often than not this is an acceptable one. It makes application easy(er) and the finishing process faster with less room for error during the curing process (this is a big consideration in my opinion); while still providing excellent durability and finish.

By no means am I saying that anyone is right or wrong in their opinions on this, everything that has been mentioned in this post is accurate. I just happen to be one of the people that leans towards the benefits of Duratec outweighing the drawbacks (most of the time).

This is one of the reasons I have really grown to appreciate this forum; anytime there is a group of people that is knowledgeable in their field offering advice and experience to people wanting to learn (although at times there may be some slight differences in opinions) it works out for the betterment of the community! Thanks Guys!
 

Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
5,581
Re: Reapply gelcoat to hull?

This is one of the reasons I have really grown to appreciate this forum; anytime there is a group of people that is knowledgeable in their field offering advice and experience to people wanting to learn (although at times there may be some slight differences in opinions) it works out for the betterment of the community! Thanks Guys!

I could not have said this any better..

YD.

PS. Watch out for BWT .. he is hitting the mark More then Others around here .. His count or membership ratings mean Nothing.. so take heed of advice given from him.. I might start a Thread on BWT...
 

Cadwelder

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
1,780
Re: Reapply gelcoat to hull?

I could not have said this any better..

YD.

PS. Watch out for BWT .. he is hitting the mark More then Others around here .. His count or membership ratings mean Nothing.. so take heed of advice given from him.. I might start a Thread on BWT...


Wow, way to go BWT, you have impressed the Dr., are you two related?
 

nymack66

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
356
Re: Reapply gelcoat to hull?

Hey YD and ondarvr, thanks for weighing in on this; I believe you both bring up good points regarding the duratec product. I can tell that this is a bit of a hot topic in this forum and I would like to comment a little further. Although the manufacturer states that a 1:1 ratio works well (and in most cases it does) it does have it's limitations. Because it is essentially thinning out the pigment levels it does make it more transparent on skim coats. I personally only recommend this ratio when working with whites and creams as you're starting out with a white base which has a high pigment level to begin with. When working with dark colors (reds, blues, greens, etc) the starting base is neutral (essentially clear and un-pigmented) and by nature is more transparent than a white base of the same thickness. This is why gel repairs on dark colors can be much more difficult, as more often than not there is slight blotchy-ness throughout the hull from the manufacturer (as the gel layer gets thinner it becomes a lighter shade). As far as this level of transparency when mixed with whites requiring excessive buildup to achieve coverage I haven't run into this. Playing devil's advocate a bit, A highly pigmented gelcoat can achieve complete coverage with thin coats (often coats that are too thin to fully cure) and that itself can cause issues with color, gloss and waterproofing degradation. Personally I've found that when using the Duratec 1:1 mix (with whites) although it does require a little more layup compared to an un-thinned mix, by the time you have complete coverage over the repair you also have a proper level of buildup for a complete cure.

As far as a loss of UV protection from using this product I guess I can't definitively say one way or the other; what I can comment on is that I have not had an issue with fading or bleaching or yellowing of a repair even after a few years of direct sun exposure (at least in our region where the boats are in the water and sun 6 months of the year and covered in snow the other 6 months; it very well could be an issue in southern areas that get hit year'round). One further thought I do have on the UV issue is that what it may lose in protection from displaced pigments it may make up for it with a higher gloss and a less porous surface. Much like varnish, a mirror finish is able to reflect the UV rather than absorb; this is a bit of speculation on my part.

In reality, a book could be written on all the nuances, trade-off's and considerations that need to be taken into consideration when working with gelcoat. By no means do I claim to know ALL there is to know about the topic, but I have had quite a bit of experience and trial and error experiments with the stuff. A professional should be aware of these things (and the good ones are; there is no doubt that the above post'ers are experts on the topic and truly know their stuff!) ** However, for the sake of someone trying to learn the tricks of the trade as they are doing the repairs themselves (often for the first time) I still stand by my recommendation for the Duratec product. Yes, like ondarvr said there are trade off's, however in my humble opinion I believe that more often than not this is an acceptable one. It makes application easy(er) and the finishing process faster with less room for error during the curing process (this is a big consideration in my opinion); while still providing excellent durability and finish.

By no means am I saying that anyone is right or wrong in their opinions on this, everything that has been mentioned in this post is accurate. I just happen to be one of the people that leans towards the benefits of Duratec outweighing the drawbacks (most of the time).

This is one of the reasons I have really grown to appreciate this forum; anytime there is a group of people that is knowledgeable in their field offering advice and experience to people wanting to learn (although at times there may be some slight differences in opinions) it works out for the betterment of the community! Thanks Guys!

Amen !!
 

aussieflash

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
1,004
Re: Reapply gelcoat to hull?

Thanks for all your replies guys.I'll be getting stuck in after my engine repairs and no doubt I'll be calling again.
Cheers Paul.
 
Top