Rebuilding Power Head

[KYHunter2]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

I don't know why they recommend oiling the cap bolts,

I never have , and know for sure it changes the torque value.

But, ou learn something new everyday, though I won't oil mine.

The OEM manual says nothing about oiling them .

If they thought it was necessary , it would be common knowledge.

I may not have mentioned it earlier, but I as well as most use gasket sealer on most of the bolts.

I use gel-seal on retaining ring bolts, though not specified.

Use NOTHING on head bolts, too many experts have been over this ,both on this forum and others .

Good-luck,


KYHunter

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

I don't know either why they recommend oiling them. Though, the people who sold my kit said I should do it and the OEM manual I have does say to do it.

"Lubricate threaded portion of the rod cap screws with Evinrude or Johnson Outboard Lubricant and install rod caps."

I do find it interesting if it isn't more common knowledge, but I also would think they must have a reason for including it in it's own step. Of course stranger things have happened, which also begs the question, is it absolutely necessary to have the gap on the wrist pin retaining ring facing down away from the piston notch.

My friend who is helping, who has built many auto motors said he's never done that. In my opinion, I'll likely do it, as it's not that difficult to do and I don't want to have any doubts.

Thanks for the vasaline idea, it helped, except for the 100*+ heat today, which made it melt a little easy, but I got a technique down and it went fairly smoothly. I didn't have much time, but am hoping to get the pistons in the cylinders tomorrow and get the crank bolted in place. Is that vasaline enough to lube that area or do I need to work some oil in there as well? As I type I can't recall if you said...

What piece are you referring to as the retaining ring?? The area where the stator mounts?

 

[KYHunter2]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

Sometimes I'll , kind of pack some assembly grease, into the needle bearings ,on crank and piston pin ends, of con- rod.

The rest of the crank bearings I just brush with straight 2 cycle oil.

The ring I referred to was the lower crank bearing, retaining ring , and lower crankhead bolts.

I use gel seal , because I know how hard it is to seperate , the crankcase halves.

When gel seal was used, exactly how I want the ring , and head ,to be , good and stuck. LOL

I don't want anything , working loose down there.

Like I said , thats what I use.

Whether its called for or not.

But, I used gel seal on the crankcase halves , that have the spaghetti seal.

And don't call for gel seal .

I also put a light coating of gasket sealer on the head gaskets.

Again not called for, and often been told ,its not necessary or a good idea.

So, I'm not saying to or not to do these things.

But, I haven't had a problem , of any kind .

KYHunter 8)

A couple thoughts, in my opinion , a machineist that tells a customer to break the edges, wasn't trained properly.

If called for , it is part of the machineing process, his job.


And I have no problem seeing where.

A unchamferred port , meaning a sharp edge , thats unbroken.

The key word is unbroken, a sharp edge is a metal shaving / chip , waiting to happen.

And ring to cylinder wall, wear/ breakin, seating. is a good way to make it happen.

As well as, it seems carbon likes to adhere to sharp/ rough edges.

Probably wouldn't happen , but you know Murphy's Law.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

The ring I referred to was the lower crank bearing, retaining ring , and lower crankhead bolts.
I use gel seal , because I know how hard it is to seperate , the crankcase halves.

I also put a light coating of gasket sealer on the head gaskets.


A couple thoughts, in my opinion , a machineist that tells a customer to break the edges, wasn't trained properly.

As well as, it seems carbon likes to adhere to sharp/ rough edges.

Probably wouldn't happen , but you know Murphy's Law.

I think that ring is the one he told me to use loctite, so sounds like both would accomplish the same thing.

I've also used gasket sealer on head gaskets even when told not to. ...in fact I've even re-used some in the past after applying gasket sealer and had no issues. I have new ones for this so no one needs to fret that.

Maybe he should have done it as part of a typical job, but he didn't. He only charged $30 a hole, when people that I would have had to mail it to wanted $50 + shipping 2 ways, so I didn't argue and he made it sound fairly simple, which if I did it right was. I've had the guy do work for me before and he's always done good work. In fact he didn't finish the job until he had the pistons in house to double check things out and he's the one who does most of the work for local marine dealers on these motors. So I don't question he was capable of doing this somewhat complex bore.

Yes, I know Murphy's Law. I confront it on a semi-daily basis!!:^ I just hope you aren't saying chamfering those how I did it wasn't good.:/

Thanks again for the input and I wanted to say, I called the company I bought the parts from, because I was missing a couple of things and asked again, why they recommend (and the OEM Book I have) oiling the bolts and he said it helps get a truer (sp?) torque on them, because it eliminates friction. I respect your opinion, but at the same time, they say to do it and so does my book, so I think that's what I better do. Maybe I'll ask on a seperate thread and see the response....:/

 

[KYHunter2]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

I dont know if this will post, or where it will post.

This great new forum, is giving me an ulcer.

Hopefully you'll see this Bryan , where ever it ends up.

I definately, didnt mean to make you think ,.

I was trying to tell you to not oil the bolts.

Just that I didn't underdstand, the purpose.

There's alot of thing , I don'tr understand.

I'll just add it to my list .

And NO, I wan't saying the way you chamferred the ports was wrong.

I've done it exactly the same way, when I honed the cylinders myself.

You should be great, and have a like new motor when your done.

Its not nearly as complicated , as it seems .

I hope my posts , didn't make you think it was.


I'm done posting on here ,anyway, for a good while .

Its far too aggrivating.

It takes from 30 min. to an hour just to be able to loggin, let alone post anything.

That may take twice as long.

Good-luck and happy boating (soon)

Adios,

KYHunter 8)

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

KYHunter thanks for all your help. I'm sorry to hear you are having trouble posting on this forum, because you have been very helpful to me. I've been able to login ok, I just can't tell when someone's replied.

With that said as long as the pistons go in ok, and I don't have any issues with the rod cap bolts, I should be somewhat in the clear. Maybe some general adjustment questions.

I've got the pits out of the head and I'm ready to wash everything tonight, so I can stick the pistons in. I plan on running the head and the block by the machinist to see what he says about them. Hopefully, I'll have the engine closed up tonight, ready for accessories tomorrow.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

Well, things are moving along at a snails pace here...mainly because Power Head Exchange, where I got my parts from can't get their crap together.

1st, they didn't send me anything for over 2 weeks, yet they of course billed the CC immediatedly. I glanced over everything when it came in, but for the most part kept it all packed in the box, until I needed it, so nothing would get lost. Well last week I realized I didn't have a few parts, so I called them up and they did appologize and sent me the parts. Then Friday, I open the gasket kit for the motor and guess what they sent me the wrong D.... kit. They sent a kit for a V4, when I have a V6. I was pretty pissed, because here I was, I had an engine pre-lubed with pistons in it and no gaskets to proceed, which means until I can locate gaskets, My engine is basically sitting open, when it could be on the boat by now.

Then Sat morning I get the mail and the parts they sent to replace the parts I was missing are for a V4. What gives???

Anyway, I gave them till noon today to call me back and rectify this, which they haven't done and it is 15 minutes until noon there time, so now I'm weighing my options. If this was one screw up it'd be one thing, but this is 3 screw-ups lasting just shy of a month. I'm seriously minutes away from calling the CC and disputing the charges to my card.

Sorry for the rant, but I need to vent and see what anyone else would do.

 

[iwombat]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

Can't stress the "keep it clean" mantra enough as another poster has mentioned. This is especially true with respect to fasteners that have very specific (and critical) torque values. I usually chase the threads (taps and dies) of anything that gets reused before they go on again. One little chunk of dirt, or left over gasket sealer can totally change your torque values.

(Oiling anything before torquing sounds like a pretty fishy practice to me too.)

 

[KYHunter2]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

I'd get back in touch, and tell them you've been more then fair.

That you want the parts shipped overnight, or a refund for the difference.

Otherwise your turning it over to cc co. , and they can deal with them .

As well as their states better buisness bureau.

I've had to resort to the BBB. once , and you'd be surprised how the customer service improves. LOL.

KYHunter

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

KY, I called and they said they would take care of it. I'm still not impressed as they can't ship 'till tomorrow as they don't have it in stock. Then they wouldn't promise overnight shipping. Then they had the gull to ask me to ship the incorrect stuff back to them. It sounded like they wanted me to pay for the return shipping.

Anyway, tomorrow I will call and if they aren't shipping overnight they can have everything I haven't used back and they can send me a box to ship it to them in.

Is there a place on this forum to tell about their lack of customer service to warn others??

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

Back to the engine, I finally got the plug out of the Lower Unit and found shavings, so I guess that's up for some inspection as well.

I have it pulled off, so I can replace the waterpump, now for the fun on that. I think I'll start a new thread on this one.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

Ok, well, I have all the rod caps installed, but not yet torqued, as the torque wrench I was trying to use, didn't seem to be working, so I stopped. So far, so good, everything is aligning very nicely.

One question is does the placement of cages have any effect on the rod/cap? Since they should in theory never touch, I'd assume no, just want to make certain.

Next, it is the lower bearing cover on the crank (where the drive shaft connects to the motor) that has the 4 bolts that get loc-tite or gel-seal, correct?

Other than this, I think I should be good to go. I'm promised gaskets Thursday morning, so we'll see...:/

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

Oh yeah, is it ok to test fire this motor in a 3' x 3' x 6' tank? I know it shouldn't be broken in on a tank, but how about a test fire to make sure it fires, etc. before haulling it to the lake? Maybe even do the 3 heat cycles, but that's not as big of a worry.

I just know how there is always, that one thing you forget and I would like to make sure it starts when I get to the lake....

 

[KYHunter2]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

Yes, the lower crankhead , gets gel-seal , or loc-tite.

I use gel-seal.

If the shavings you found were on the plug, a few shavings is normal.

As long as, its not alot, of shavings.

The plug is magnetic, for this purpose.

I may get some flack , over this but here goes.

I do my idle break in , in a barrel, allways have.

See no harm in test starting in the box you describe.

As long as the water intakes are covered.

If you used old cages , and kept them together, for the rod they came from, your fine.

If new cages, no , just put them in , and torque.

If your using a click type , torque wrench.

I find that after each bolt , I ratchet it back a bit .

Before I torque the next, seems to give a more positive , click.

Mine for inch lbs. is a matco, but even the advance auto type.

Are accurate , if taken care of.

One other thing, if your using gel seal , or whatever sealant really.

Be carefull not to use an excessive amount, that will ooze into crankcase.

It can clog the small orifices/ holes, that are necessary for proper lubrication.

Good - Luck,

KYHunter

 

[funpilot]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

I start mine for the first time on muffs. I figure that assures the impeller isn't running dry, I can spot the tell-tale (water stream) right away and I know if it will start and idle for a few minutes on the muffs, it will start at the lake. If the start up goes well, and there are no warning horms (remember to pump the oil bulb to the VRO if you've opened that system) I let it run long enough to read the idle and to warm the heads to where I can just touch them for a few seconds before I want to pull my hands away. I shut down and allow it to cool. That's my first thermo cycle. I never exceed 1500 rpm on muffs.

That whole procedure is very satisfying, especially when it starts for the first time. I'm sure that it could be carried out in a tub, if the water doesn't get too hot as you do it.

After the first couple of hours of actual running on the lake, you want to re-torque your heads, and exhaust cover (the big plate on the back between the cylinder V).

fp

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

Ok, well all sounds fine, except now I'm a bit concerned.

I used to know what cages went with each rod and which rod, went to which spot on the crank, but was told it didn't matter, so I didn't worry and things likely got mixed up. Am I screwed?

I believe I was told this by both the machinist and the rebuilder place where I got my parts.

Made sense to me, because none of those pieces actually touch, because of the bearings, which are new.

Hmmm....:%

 

[KYHunter2]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

I cant' say for sure.

I assume since your using the old cages that your also using the old needles.

I keep both the needles and cages together, as well as which piston they came from.

The reason, at least what I've thought ,was that after being used , the rods may have taken sort of a set .

I hope you kept caps and rods together, its a pain sometimes to tell which go together.

All I can say is assemble , and rotate crank , with the case temporarily together , no sealant.

As long as there's no binding , flat spots, etc. etc.

You should be ok.

In the beginning of this thread you stated you bagged everything , to keep together.

Its a good practice , whether its necessary or not.

Just takes one more variable out of the equation.

Just a tip , just like on this forum.

You can ask 10 mechanics a question, and may get 10 slightly different answers.

It is widely recommended to keep parts together, and labeled as to where they came from.

KYHunter

 

[iwombat]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

It's certainly better to put everything back where it came from. For that purpose I use a metal stamp on the rods and mark 1,2, etc. before disassembly (cars I'm talking about here). But, you're not "screwed" as you say. As these parts heat and cool and are subjected to stresses they work-harden in places. Those places may vary from spot to spot as temperatures and stresses vary as you move around the engine. What that means is if you move stuff around it will work harden in different places and be more likely to fail. Notice the words _more likely_, this is not the same as definately or even highly likely. You're just increasing the small odds of a failure to a little less small.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

Well, PowerHeadExchange, where I ordered this stuff, whom I've had problems with in the past on this project, might be getting their act together. I guess they have a new guy and so far he seems on top of everything. In fact he called me this AM to tell me my parts should be here today. Very nice gesture.

Anyway, I asked him about the cages and he said not to worry about it at this point they can be mixed and matched. He said if something looked weak or showed excess wear, then it might matter, but if they all looked good, then it didn't. Everything looked great.

I am using new bearings, just not new cages. Reason is in the kit, the bearings came loose. I could have opted for new bearings caged, but the total cost would have been around $300 more and no one seemed like that was necessary.

I did keep the rods and caps together, in fact I kept them that way using the old bolts, so there wouldn't be any question.

All bolts and small misc parts are bagged and labeled per the step in the manual I pulled them off in. There is one black cap and either a bolt or nut, that I don't know where they go. I'll try to remember to get a pic and post it of the cap and the bolt(nut), though I'm not certain the bolt(nut) will be known and I can likely find that when it all goes together. The cap on the other hand is a total mistery. It is about 3/4" +/- in diameter and about 1/2" +/- in length. I either found it right before pulling the P.H. off or when I put it on the bench to work on it.

 

[KYHunter2]

Re: Rebuilding Power Head

Sounds like the black thing may be a idle stop cap, etc.

Or a motor mount cap, that goes on the bolt on feet , that help control lateral movement.




KYHunter