Reeds shot in old Merc...

vampirefish

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
195
Hello all.. thought I'd give ya'll an update on my old merc. Well, after much troubleshooting from my mechanic and his 2nd opinion (another mechanic) he's concluded that the reed valves (or blocks, can't remember the exact term) are shot. Looks like I'll need to either a) have them replaced - $1200 or b) rebuild the engine (to include new reeds) - $2000 or c)buy a new engine (and call it good) or just 'try' to sell it all.<br /><br />Does anyone have any advice for me... on what I should do here? I mean, this engine had been working prior to my parents leaving it outside in the rain for about 2yrs. I dumped money into not only the engine (carb rebuild, rewiring - to get it to work) but also the boat itself. I know, I know... I'm not alone here... but sheesh! I'm ready to sell it all off and call it good.<br /><br />signed, sad in seattle :(
 

joblo33

Chief Petty Officer
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Jan 19, 2005
Messages
501
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

It's not too hard to replace the reed blocks. Just pull the powerhead and open the crankcase, then remove the old reeds and either fix em or put new ones in. It can be done without pulling the pistons out and having to deal with rings. <br />Good Luck :) <br />Eric
 

vampirefish

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Feb 14, 2005
Messages
195
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

Eric, thanks for the info. But doesn't 'pull the powerhead' mean to almost completely disassemble? My mechanic was making it sound like that, and that he suggested a rebuild if he was going to replace them...
 

vampirefish

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Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

Reason, for my comment, is if I can do it, I will certainly give it a shot :)
 

mixerjv

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Oct 28, 2005
Messages
86
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

"and that he suggested a rebuild if he was going to replace them"<br /><br />Makes sense if your going to pull it apart and you want a like new engine, but, If you just want the engine to go again replacing the reed valves yourself might be fine, and it really isn't that hard, just make sure you have the official merc manual if you don't.<br /><br />It really all depends on what you want to do with the engine in the long term. <br /><br />If you have no restrictions on where you boat coming on the horizon (i.e. lakes that are starting to or have banned carborated two strokes), then $2000 for your mechanic to remove the powerhead, rebuild it, and reassemble it to the tower isn't bad and probably worth it even for a '66.
 

Laddies

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12,218
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

In many cases that story is used to cover for someones inablity to find the problem with a engine. I hope thats not the case here, what was the problem with the engine to start with? It would also probaly to at lest rering the engine when it's down. Mercury flat rate is 7.6 Hrs for 1 reed block and .4 for each additional or 13.5 Hrs for major powerhead repair (rings and bearings). My idea of a second opinion is done by another shop--Bob
 

LubeDude

Admiral
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Oct 8, 2003
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6,945
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

Im with Laddies, bet its not the reeds!<br /><br />What kind of problems are you having? Or is all this in another thread?
 

joblo33

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
501
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

True, I've only found a truly bad reed once, and it was bent open, probably by someone sticking something in the intake while the carbs were off.<br /> Yes, pulling the powerhead is pretty much completely reassembling it, but it's a fairly simple engine. The only part of the powerhead you'll need to pull off once it's out is the crankcase cover on the front, and those bolts usually aren't too bad to get out. Once you're inside you can just work on the reeds without removing any other parts or disturbing the pistons, as long as you had good compression before hand. If you had bad compresion you'd want to have it rebuilt. <br />It's also true that a mechanic can use the "bad reeds" as an excuse when he can't find your problem because he'll charge more than its worth to fix the reeds so you'll just buy a new engine instead.<br />Eric
 

vampirefish

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Feb 14, 2005
Messages
195
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

Thanks for the replies... I have had this info on other threads, however, things have changed since, so here's latest the scoop:<br /><br />The engine ran fine out of water (with hose)... no problem idling. <br /><br />So, I took the boat out on the water and once I got it to idle, it would only idle in nuetral with the throttle midway (sorry, no tach, no guages for reference). When I would push it all the way up, it would rev a little, but not what I would imagine (like it does out of the water). And forget trying to get it to idle with any less fuel than midway - it just died.<br /><br />I was 'finally' able to get it to go into forward without dieing (only one time), but when pushing the throttle up, it would barely go...like it's being deprived of fuel. I did ensure that the fuel tank was vented and I had just replaced the fuel line and tank.<br /><br />So, I took it to a mechanic and was told that the carbs needed to be cleaned...at least a place to start (I agreed, as this thing sat for about 2yrs). I asked if he had checked the fuel pump and he said yes, it's all fine. So the carbs were cleaned (I was charged 2x the amount he had quoted). And the place didn't have a chance to run it in the water (there was a miscommunication on when I needed it and when they thought I needed it). So they had just tested it in a bucket... which it runs fine (I could have told them that)!<br /><br />So I take the boat back out on the water... and it idles great, even in it's lowest position... but once I put it into Forward or Reverse, it dies! No matter how long I let her idle to ensure she's completely warmed up...no dice.<br /><br />So I call my mechanic back (actually the owner this time) and complain that it's still not working, that it hadn't been tested and that I was charged more than he had quoted. Blah blah... I take it back and he says he'll troubleshoot it for me.<br /><br />He calls back and says the distributor is shot and needs to be replaced... something about the rotar being loose... and that he's never seen one in such poor condition. I tell him I don't have the money for him to fix it right now... but he says he'll cut me a deal (on account of the carb dealio).. so I leave it there... knowing it probably won't be his highest priority (and it's not really mine... since summer has come and gone).<br /><br />Just this past week he calls me back and says that he's taken it back out on the water (with a buddy mechanic, for a second opinion) and it's still dieing. Even after retiming it/readjusting the carb.. but no luck. So they both came to the conclusion that it's the reeds. So... yes, after re-reading this post, it doesn't really sound like they know.. does it?<br /><br />But how would I know... and wouldn't it be costly to have a mechanic troubleshoot this for me? I have a feeling that I should go somewhere else... however, don't have a couple hundred more bucks for someone to guess for me...<br /><br />thanks in advance!
 

Motor Boater Bill

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Jan 29, 2005
Messages
488
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

I would say that with all the expertise here, it should be possible to do a better job of troubleshooting the real problem right here, and I certainly wouldn't start turning wrenches or slinging Ben Franklins until you have a better idea of what is wrong. The guys you've had working on it so far seem to have only demonstrated that their diagnostic skills, at least on this motor, are lacking. And of course the economics of these old motors we love pretty much dictate that we only come out ahead by turning the wrenches ourselves once the experts here help us figure out what actually needs to be done. Just my two cents, I'm not one of the experts, just another old-motor-owner who gets help online--and turns his own wrenches!
 

Laddies

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12,218
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

To start with find a dirrerant shop this guy is a parts changer. If the engine will idle on a 6 cyl. then it is not the reeds. In as much as the engine has been sitting around for a while it sounds like the rings are stuck, get some power tune or simular product and soak the engine with it and see if the rings will free up, another way to to tell if it's the rings causing the problem is to double or triple mix the oil if it idles better then you will know it is the rings sticking
 

inlineal

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Sep 19, 2005
Messages
46
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

Vampirefish...I work on these outboards all the time and my shop isn't too far from you...(north of Poulsbo)...I just cut loose an older inline that a shop in your area said it had "BAD REEDS" when infact the crankcase halves had been sealed with automotive high temp silicone which had melted out...Good one!!....The only "BAD REED" I have encountered in about a decade was this year and it was a late model 15 Merc that somehow had saltwater damage..It took a couple weeks to get the reed set..(slow moving part)..The damaged reed wasn't even making the motor run bad..It was the fear of it breaking off...call me if you wish..maybe we can hash it over...360-779-7258...
 

inlineal

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Sep 19, 2005
Messages
46
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

Vampirefish...I forgot to mention the first thing I would try is what Laddies just said...I too would highly suspect sticky rings....
 

Clams Canino

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Jan 10, 2004
Messages
2,179
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

Usually if it'll idle down ok, it's not the reeds. De-carb it for giggles, bump the idle up so that it's about 900, and open each of the idle mix screws 1/4 turn.<br /><br />If you don;t have a tach , you'll need one to get to the bottom of this. <br /><br />Also.... what pitch is your prop? An overpropped motor will do what you'rs is doing too.<br /><br />-W
 

vampirefish

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Feb 14, 2005
Messages
195
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

WOW... looks like there may be light at the end of the tunnel, after all. Thanks so much for the suggestions. Here are some answers to them and also a couple more questions:<br /><br /> Clams wrote: "De-carb it for giggles, bump the idle up so that it's about 900, and open each of the idle mix screws 1/4 turn. If you don;t have a tach , you'll need one to get to the bottom of this. Also.... what pitch is your prop? An overpropped motor will do what you'rs is doing too."<br />Answer/Question: I don't know what pitch my prop is at.. interesting. Also I had the carb rebuilt (hoping this would fix the problem)... is that what you mean by de-carb? I don't have a tach, but will get one to figure this out!<br /><br />Laddies wrote: "get some power tune or simular product and soak the engine with it" ... <br />Question: Is power tune a product I can easily find at the local marine shop (I'm guessing so) ...and how do should I soak the engine with it? I mean I'll read the directions, but if you have anything more to add, I would appreciate it.<br /><br />I think I'll try to 'unstick' the rings first. If I can do this out of water, I'll do it and then probably just winterize her and try testing it this spring (in the water)... unless I can get a friend to go out on the water in the winter... chances are NOT :D
 

Clams Canino

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Jan 10, 2004
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2,179
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

De-carb and Mercury Power-Tune are the same stuff. Use as directed on the can - twice. <br /><br />That will help with any sticky rings. I assume the shop you went to did a compression test though. That's an SOP.<br /><br />You outta get the manual for that motor in general. Those inlines are a great product, but you gotta know how to keep them happy.<br /><br />-W
 

vampirefish

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Feb 14, 2005
Messages
195
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

Thanks, Clams! I actually did the compression tests and they were great... here were the results:<br /><br />1 - 130<br />2 - 135<br />3 - 135<br />4 - 135<br />5 - 131<br />6 - 130<br /><br />I wonder how much they actually did at that shop... :( ... another reason I don't trust mechanics... of course, it doesn't help that i'm a 'girl' ;)
 

Clams Canino

Commander
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Jan 10, 2004
Messages
2,179
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

If it has compression like that it's fine. Just de-carb it (twice 1st then once annaually) to keep the old rings clean and happy.<br /><br />If it'll idle down, your problems are unlikely reeds. To add a possibility it could be that the carbs need cleaning. Most outboards mechanics havn't even seen your motor and will guess till you're broke. <br /><br />Bottom line is your problems are periferal and relatively minor in the grander scheme of things.<br /><br />-W
 

Motor Boater Bill

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Jan 29, 2005
Messages
488
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

Vamp,<br />Listen to these guys--Clams and Laddies are experts!<br /><br />Good luck and don't give up!
 

vampirefish

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
195
Re: Reeds shot in old Merc...

Thanks so much to all! I've told so many people about this forum! It's invaluable! <br /><br />I will definitely go the 'decarb' route 1st. I'll keep everyone up to date... <br /><br />inlineal - I may be giving you a call soon, thanks for the support. <br /><br />.. wish me luck :D
 
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