Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

[natemoore]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

You could try heating the stud and removing that. I think it takes an allen wrench. Not sure which way that turns.

Couldn't you figure it out by the normal rotation of the camshaft? In other words, you'd want the inertia of the stud to always apply a tightening torque when the camshaft starts turning. So if you imagined holding the loose stud stationary and cranked over the engine, would it be righty-tighty or lefty-loosey that caused the stud to tighten into the camshaft? Do you follow?

 

[ChazzL]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

The "one wire" must go to the battery. So you could run the wire to the large stud on the starter and remove all of the wires from the VR.

That makes sense. Actually, I would connect it to the battery stud on the solenoid (it is separate from the starter on this model).

 

[ChazzL]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

OK. Here is the start of Day Two. (I'm keeping this as one thread). The stator is off. I got one of the frozen bolts off, but had to cut the last one, and then break it off at the block. It was trashed: busted magnets, rusted, bashed, pretty bad. Probably why the alternator conversion was put in to begin with.
You can see here the stator and triangular hose connector are removed. (note the coil in the upper left corner. More on that in a sec.). 3rd pic is the water pump cover removed exposing the impellor which came off fairly easily. I cut the oil pan gasket with a razor blade and removed the timing chain front cover. You have to go carefully and and break the gasket seal all around. Then you slowly pry the cover STRAIGHT off all around. I did not know where the 2 pin/dowels were located, or it would have been easier to start at their location. They are marked with the arrows. The third arrow shows the cork oil pan gasket.


Now, back to the coil. When I disconnected the distributor wire from the coil, underneath the boot the coil recessed connector area was filled with oil?? Is this normal?

Also, you can see the two etched grooves in the cam. The most forward one I can feel with my fingernail. That's why the seal failed and coolant started leaking. The 2nd groove is very faint, but you can tell it's on it's way to joining the other as a serious problem.


Now I go to measure the cam for the speedi-sleaves. Also set up the drill press to work remove/reilstall the seals in the front cover plate. More on that later.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

My guess on the coil is that it is leaking. It's probably an oil filled coil. Clean it out and see if it re-accumulates.

I repaired my camshaft with speedi-sleeves. So far so good. To verify proper placement after meticulous SWAG'ing, I blackened the sleeve with permanent marker, assembled the cover, spun the cam, the took apart to see where the ink had been removed by the seal. I tried to get it right in the middle of the sleeve. Don't accidentally drive it on too far because you can't pull it back off (I don't think). It took me a few assemblies/disassemblies before I got it right.

You've got a lot of rust stains in your water pump area. When I rebuilt mine, everything was clean metal on the inside. Wonder why yours is so rusted?

 

[ChazzL]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

An oil filled coil. I never knew they existed. I'll see how it goes when starting up. No problems before....
As for proper placement your technique seems good, but I'm not sure I want to go through all that. I was thinking I would center the sleeves over the gouges, and then make sure the new seals are in exactly the same place/depth where the old ones were. I didn't even realize you could install them to different depths on the cover. I'm going to play with removing them later today and see what the situation is. Also, I was planning on using green locktite once the sleeves were in place. I understand it will seep in under the sleeve and secure it like the red would. Anyone have any suggestion on that?
I'm a little concerned about the rust myself. I had plain water in the cooling system after putting in a new thermostat. Before I could add a rust inhibitor I found this water pump leak. Will a week or so of plain water cause rust in the manifolds or engine? I figure when everything is back together I'll do a flush and refill with proper rust-inhibitor.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

As for proper placement your technique seems good, but I'm not sure I want to go through all that. I was thinking I would center the sleeves over the gouges, and then make sure the new seals are in exactly the same place/depth where the old ones were.

That's precisely the reason I did the permanent marker thing. That's the only way I could be 100% sure that they were in the correct place. It's not a lot of work. Blacken the sleeve, shove on the cover, turn the crank, yank off the cover and see where the ink was removed by the seal lip. I wasn't completely re-assembling everything, although my post probably made you think that.

I used red (high strength) Loctite on the sleeves, but I wouldn't on the capillary effect to get it under the sleeve since it's pretty thick the sleeve is very snug. I liberally applied it to the sleeve and camshaft before I installed it, then wiped off the excess.

Why aren't you using anti-freeze/coolant or is that what you're calling rust inhibitor?

 

[ChazzL]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

Beginning of "Day 3". (at least the 3rd day of working on the repair. Some days I have to actually do "earn a living" work).
Re: Anti-freeze. Everything I read says that in a tropical climate (I'm in SW Florida) anti-freeze is un-necessary if you use a good rust-inhibitor (not a/f). Even the service manual states this. In fact, I've read that a/f actually causes the engine to run hotter than plain water. It may keep it from boiling over or freezing I guess. I would greatly appreciate some of the expert opinions on this.
I measured the water pump cam yesterday and picked up the speedi sleeves, $22 each.
Today I picked up the new parts I ordered: 2 cam seals, a front cover gasket kit, and a front main cam seal. $86.
Here's the front cover, ready to remove the seals. There are two of them. In between the two was the "spring ring" -loose. Only found one though. Should have been two. Hmmmm. Also the areas in-between the 2 seals had lots of grease in it. Should I be packing grease in there when I install the new ones?


I just finished tackling the removal of the water pump seals. What a B%#@H! I created my own "seal puller" (thanks to natemore's "home-made tools" for inspiration).

I happen to have a strong washer just the right size to fit inside the cover and press on the seals. I started to compress but there was no give at all. Then I remembered the red loctite possibility so I pulled out my trusty heat gun and warmed the heck out of cover. I warned both sides evenly to keep from causing any warp. When I went back to compressing it let out a "BANG" that I was sure was the cover plate cracking! But, all seemed ok so I kept compressing. Not much good though. One seal was being flattened against the other, but there was no progress. I heated some more, compressed some more. Got another bang or two as the seals were "breaking free". I went slow, switched to some PVC unions, etc. No progress. I took a chance and did some very fine cutting with my Dremel tool, into the seals, being very careful not to touch the cover plate. Not sure if it was the winning factor or not but FINALLY!...it broke free! You can see (maybe) the one seal (on the left) that was crushed.

Once apart I could see what happened. Here are 2 pics, one from each side. I was pushing in the direction of the arrow.

You can see the drain hole that is in-between the 2 seals when assembled. This is what leads to the leaking coolant weep hole if the first seal malfunctions. I was pushing the 2nd seal towards the 1st when the edge of the seal gouged into the side if the drain hole. Those 2 "dashes" are gouges in the metal. The seal was caught up ion the edge of the hole but finally broke free. I will try to lightly grind down the raised edge of the 2 gouges with the Dremel tool.
BTW, I did not see any evidence of red loctite. (Would it still be red)? The repair instructions say to use Red Loctite on the seals when installing them. Is that correct?
Tomorrow I install the 2 new seals, remove/replace the main cam seal, and start the re-assembly process. Who knows?.....Maybe I'll get to go fishing this weekend!

 

[ChazzL]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

That's precisely the reason I did the permanent marker thing. That's the only way I could be 100% sure that they were in the correct place. It's not a lot of work. Blacken the sleeve, shove on the cover, turn the crank, yank off the cover and see where the ink was removed by the seal lip. I wasn't completely re-assembling everything, although my post probably made you think that.

BTW...I mis-understood the process. The new seals are in a pre-determined position in the cover, but the sleeves need to be positioned just right. I'm planning on pressing the first seal in as far as it will go into the cover. Then the second will go until it's just inside the lip. This would leave enough space between them to make sure the weep hole is not blocked. That sound right?
Then I'll use your marker system to position the sleeves. What's the best way to turn the cam? Just put the bolt in the end and turn it? Thanks for all the help.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

I didn't have a problem getting my seals out. I used a screw driver and pried up one side. Popped right out. Same with every oil seal I've ever removed. Look at an actual seal puller tool. It just hooks under one side of the seal and uses the opposite side of the seal as the fulcrum. Instead of overcoming a little friction a little at a time, you had to overcome 100% of the friction (times 2) at one time.

Come to think of it, I may have tapped them out from the opposite side using a flat-tipped nail punch. Either way, they came out easily as I recall.

Go easy with that Dremmel tool. I wouldn't even use it. Since the cover is aluminum, I'd just scrape off the high points with a utility knife and use fine sand paper to smooth it out.

Do you have the #8 service manual? All the proper procedures are in there.

Paraphrasing the manual: Apply Loctite 8831 to outside diameter of oil seals. Do not allow it to get on lips. Support underside of cover when installing seals. Both seal lips face water side. First one is bottomed out. Second one is flushed with the cover surface. Space in between is filled with Quicksilver 2-4-C. Install crankshaft seal with seal lip toward engine block. Press seal in until it bottoms out. Lube seal lip with 2-4-C. Lube crankshaft end and water pump shaft with 2-4-C. New style impeller with stud: apply Loctite 8831 to threads in camshaft. Install stud and torque. DO NOT apply Loctite to impeller threads. Install and torque impeller. Apply Perfect Seal to cover gasket and bolt threads.

I used Loctite 271 (red high strength) and Permatex aviation liquid Form-A-Gasket instead of 8831 and Quicksilver Perfect Seal.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

I think I'd be more comfortable turning the crankshaft with the bolt installed, not the camshaft.

 

[ChazzL]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

(Yes...turn the bolt, not the cam shaft .
I use manual #3, but I found what you were referring to. (Can't believe I missed it). I guess I got over worried about all I read regarding warping the cover, and using a press to remove the seals, etc. Anyway, I'll nix the dremel and scrape/sand as you suggest. Good idea. I have red loctite in stead of 8831 (or "Loctite A" as manual #3 calls it). I'll go get some 2-4-C grease. Or would the "Triple-Guard Grease" I have suffice? It's great stuff.
When installing the seals I was going to press them on with some PVC pipe again. It would be pressing against the rubber inside ov the seal, but evenly. Any tips or suggestions?

 

[natemoore]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

(Yes...turn the bolt, not the cam shaft .
I use manual #3, but I found what you were referring to. (Can't believe I missed it). I guess I got over worried about all I read regarding warping the cover, and using a press to remove the seals, etc. Anyway, I'll nix the dremel and scrape/sand as you suggest. Good idea. I have red loctite in stead of 8831 (or "Loctite A" as manual #3 calls it). I'll go get some 2-4-C grease. Or would the "Triple-Guard Grease" I have suffice? It's great stuff.
When installing the seals I was going to press them on with some PVC pipe again. It would be pressing against the rubber inside ov the seal, but evenly. Any tips or suggestions?

Ohhh....you meant the crankshaft bolt. Sorry to insult your intelligence.

I use sections of PVC pipe all the time to press in seals. If you can't get a piece of pipe that is as big as the seal, try some other fittings, like couplers. I'd want to press against the metal, not the rubber part. If your pipe or fitting is a hair too big, you could sand it down a bit. I have a stationary sanding station, so it's easy for me to do that.

Don't know about Triple-Guard.

 

[boattoy]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

if you install speedi sleeves use permatex high temp sleeve retainer. meant for engine block sleeves and anything that doesnt have threads so its perfect for this. thats what i just used and i dont have a single drop of water coming out of the weep hole.

 

[ChazzL]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

Had a chance to work on the project over the weekend. All going well. PVC couplings fit perfectly for installing the new seals. (Placed cover on a towel on the cement floor and the seals went in fairly easily. Second pic is after the speedi-sleeves were installed abd the flared end removed.


The 3rd pic shows a coolant drain hole with the plug at the bottom. I had removed the plug at the beginning but nothing came out. Turns out the drain tube was completely blocked with packed dark brown powder. I don't think it was rust but....? A coat hanger did the trick.

I didn't get any pics of the re-assembly. No real problems. Used aviation form-a-gasket. Made a new oil pan gasket with cork and sealed it up good with Shellac. I traced around the bottom of the cover and cut out a new oil pan gasket from cork. I made the gasket so it would stick out the front an extra half inch. This gave me something to grab with plyers while sliding the front cover into place. Worked pretty good except for one "stupid me" move. I forgot to cut holes in the gasket for the oil pan bolts. Got everything all shellaced up before I noticed my mistake. Tried to cut the holes in the cork with the goop on it -huge mistake. Had shellac on everything! Finally scrapped the whole thing and made a new gasket again. Stupid! :redface: (Luckily I had a can of acitone around).

Last two questions:
1.) This is the inside of the rotor cover.

You can see where there were magnets attached (VERY firmly). I chisled off all that I could but it was hard stuff. Is this a balancing issue? I wouldn't think so but thought I'd ask.

2.) When installing the rotor cover (without the stator) I put some grease on the seal lips and the cam-shaft. I used a harmonic ballancer installation tool and it went smoothly. Tooks some effort to press it into place. I stopped when the rotor was about a tenth of an inch from the cover, removed the installer tool and inserted the camshaft end bolt. The instructions say to torque this down to 75 ft/lbs. Well, the rotor kept moving until it is now barely brushing the cover plate and it's less than 50 ft/lbs. I stopped, of course. Should the cover be bottoming out on something on the shaft? (I didn't see anything). The absence of the stator shouldn't make a difference. I can back the rotor cover out a bit, but then the bolt would not be torqued correctly. What's going on here?

 

[stonyloam]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

The center of the rotor bottoms out on the end of the crankshaft. Your new cover gaskets are probably a little thicker than the old ones. One other 470 owner here had the same problem and he just added a shim under the rotor to space it out enough to clear. So you can add a shim or take a little off the rotor, I don't think I would mess with the cover. If you are already at 50 ft lb, it is probably not going to move much more. Good luck.

 

[ChazzL]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

Ah-Ha...That makes sense. If I go with adding a shim do I just get some stainless washer that's big enough? Otherwize, you're thinking -if the rotor is not seated quite all the way it's ok if the bolt still has some decent torque?
BTW -Anyone have any thoughts on the anti-freeze issue from comment #27?

 

[ChazzL]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

Well, I got everything back together and there seemd to be no leaks anywhere. I had backed off the rotor cover a little so it was not against the front cover, torqued the bolt down as far as possible without moving the rotor closer. But when out on the test drive it made a "dinging, bell-like" sound. It looked like the rotor cover moved in toward the front cover and was lightly touching it. It is very slight. I think I'll have to remove the rotor again and put a washer/shim between the camshaft and the rotor cover. Does that sound right?
Also, I got a noticeable change in the exhaust sound as I trurned to either side at moderate idle speed. Is that normal?
Unfortunately, I still have an overheating problem that seemed to get worse with this repair, but that will be a new thread.
Thanks for all the help everybody. It's really great that you guys help out us newbies!

 

[natemoore]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

Well, I got everything back together and there seemd to be no leaks anywhere. I had backed off the rotor cover a little so it was not against the front cover, torqued the bolt down as far as possible without moving the rotor closer. But when out on the test drive it made a "dinging, bell-like" sound. It looked like the rotor cover moved in toward the front cover and was lightly touching it. It is very slight. I think I'll have to remove the rotor again and put a washer/shim between the camshaft and the rotor cover. Does that sound right? Shim was suggested earlier.
Also, I got a noticeable change in the exhaust sound as I trurned to either side at moderate idle speed. Is that normal? That's probably just the exhaust sound being less muffled.
Unfortunately, I still have an overheating problem that seemed to get worse with this repair, but that will be a new thread.
Thanks for all the help everybody. It's really great that you guys help out us newbies!

Bummer about the overheating.

 

[sr.v]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

Here is one solution to repair the cam grooves ,hhmm iam in europe so i did it in millimeters. In my case the cam diameter was 22,14mm , so there is no speedi sleeve for that diameter (99087 axle must be at least 22,18mm). I take some chronium shaft , outerdiam. 25mm and turn hole on a lathe to 22,15mm. Then i cut it to 30mm lenght. I warm it to 100 celsius and ad some loctite to shaft and put the chronium part over the camshaft. Then i must turn one aluminium part to timingcover so that the casket (out.diam 35mm) will fit timingcovers hole 38,10mm (1,5 inches). I ad some loctite to cover and put aluminium fitting to cover. Casket is 25mmx35mmx7mm.Here are some photos.
View attachment 124816View attachment 124817View attachment 124818View attachment 124819

 

[sr.v]

Re: Replacing the Water Pump Cam Seals on 1982 Mercruiser 470 -Day One

Here is one solution to repair the cam grooves ,hhmm iam in europe so i did it in millimeters. In my case the cam diameter was 22,14mm , so there is no speedi sleeve for that diameter (99087 axle must be at least 22,18mm). I take some chronium shaft , outerdiam. 25mm and turn hole on a lathe to 22,15mm. Then i cut it to 30mm lenght. I warm it to 100 celsius and ad some loctite to shaft and put the chronium part over the camshaft. Then i must turn one aluminium part to timingcover so that the seal (out.diam 35mm) will fit timingcovers hole 38,10mm (1,5 inches). I ad some loctite to cover and put aluminium fitting to cover. Seal is 25mmx35mmx7mm.Here are some photos from cam and chronium part.
View attachment 124816View attachment 124817View attachment 124818View attachment 124819

UUps , the chronium axles inner diam. should be 22.12mm