Repowering Bertram 25?

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
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Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

I have one sitting out by my shop - you can come and get it for free!! Even has an old boat attached to it that I will throw in with the deal! :D


That's cold .....................

SEO, don't even kid around about putting one of those things in that boat, I would have to hunt you down and horse whip ya :eek: :p :p
 

seo

Cadet
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Mar 14, 2009
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Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

First thing, the existing engines are shot. They're 44 years old, salt water cooled. The carburetors are fairly recent, but both need new ex mflds and risers. The problem isn't rebuilding the blocks. It's that all the ancillaries are old and tired. Replacing the generators, starters, carbs, fuel pumps, mflds, and adding on heat exchangers would cost a lot.
Second, this exact boat will in fact go 5 kt with a 15 hp long shaft evinrude. I've done it on another Bertram 25, taking it from Islesboro Maine to Thomaston, Maine, a trip of about 35 nautical miles At that speed it isn't making waves at all, and it's square transom isn't causing much turbulence, so it's really just skin resistance. The only thing that would change the picture at all is weight, because the boat I'm talking about didn't have the outdrives installed. It's a long story.
Third, a Bertram 25 isn't a wooden boat. They're an early fiberglass boat, with what might be the first deep vee hull ever put into production, following the success of a Bertram boat (called "Moppie" maybe) in the Miami Nassau race, which was a big deal back then. Some people think these are classic boats, worthy of all sorts of trouble and expense.
Finally, I don't see single screw as a problem. I've been employed running tugboats as captain for the last eighteen years, and have only worked on two twin screw boats. All the long trips, like New York to Puerto Cortez Honduras to New York have been done in single screw boats. My experience sailing as engineer on fishing boats, coastal freight in Alaska, and coastwise tugs was entirely in twin screw boats. Other than a twin screw passenger boat I used to own, and a six month stint spent operating a bunch of twin and triple screw US Navy vessels, and a recent trip running a twin screw square topsail schooner around England and down to Portugal, I have spent very little time in multi-screw boats. My observation is that single screw boats maneuver as well if you're on top of it, and if the engineer is good they don't spend any more time floating around dead ship.
If I understand the collective wisdom of the group here, it is:
1) Stay away from OMC electro-matic shift!
2) Volvo might be a better choice than Merc for a medium-speed boat
3) Diesel would be better than gas, cost no object.

So the next question is, where's the best place to look for a running-takeout Volvo duo prop? The idea of looking for a damaged or totalled boat to take an engine out of has occurred to me.
 

Don S

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Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

1) Stay away from OMC electro-matic shift!
2) Volvo might be a better choice than Merc for a medium-speed boat
3) Diesel would be better than gas, cost no object.

That's about it, as long as "Medium-speed boats" means up to 50 MPH.

where's the best place to look for a running-takeout Volvo duo prop?

There is the problem, you don't find them very often. Except on wrecked boats. People just don't replace things that work.
 

abj87

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
354
Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

HT i ignored the 15 hp pushing the boat the same as a 165, cause i didn't want him thinking i was attacking him.

15 hp will barely give him headway if that, and a good wind or waves forgetaboutit that 15 and that boat ain't going nowhere.

Still waiting for the compression test. Maybe there ain't nothing wrong with them motors, and it's a desire for more power.

2 motors, are the safest way to go on the water, one motor goes down the other will get you home.

I myself now have a kicker motor strapped down in my cuddy, and i hope i never have use for it.

Do some research on hull speed power calculations, you will be surprised. We can push our 30 foot 8 ton sailboat to hull speed with 3HP!


Generally one big main engine is more efficient than twin engines, from a out drive drag standpoint and internal friction of the engines.
 

HT32BSX115

Supreme Mariner
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Dec 8, 2005
Messages
10,083
Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

Generally one big main engine is more efficient than twin engines, from a out drive drag standpoint and internal friction of the engines.

I'll agree with that.

But with the fairly low replacement cost of a pair of Rapido Marine or equivalent engines and 2 SE drives, the cost and aggravation would still probably be less than replacing/re-cutting the transom and buying a BBC/DPS/Bravo III unless he could find a "swinging deal" like I did for only $5K (1997, 122hr freshwater 454/Bravo III ) complete from steering wheel to props.

A couple of weeks ago I found a Mercruiser 2006 496HO/Bravo III for $8000 on craigslist in Seattle with less than 100 hours on it. I don't know why it was being removed or if it was coming out of a damaged boat etc....It was gone pretty quick....
 

seo

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Messages
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Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

hull speed formula is square root of LWL multiplied by some constant, which ranges from 1.1 maybe up to 1.5. The most common one used is 1.2.
Sq. root of 21 is 4.58, multiplied by 1.2 = 5.49
The reason that something like a barge can't reach hull speed is that they have too much skin friction.
In the case of a smooth fiberglass boat with clean bottom paint, not much friction.
Compared to a sailboat or workboat, 4500 is quite light, which translates to less wetted surface. On the other hand, a square transom creates turbulence, which is (I think) a type of wave making, which is resistance.
 

chiefalen

Captain
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May 18, 2008
Messages
3,598
Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

I have your solution, very simple you provided it SEO. Just leave the 15hp outboard kicker on the boat and get rid off all the extra weight of the 2-L6 motors, and the drives, just fill in the holes in the transoms.

You will push the boat just as well as the L6's and save gas, you posted you don't care how fast you go just so you can go across that constantly calm bay with no waves and wind.

If one 15 hp outboard don't do it ,get 2. Or better yet hang a 30 hp you will go twice as fast.

One has to wonder why someone with all your vast knowledge, would have to come on to this lowly website and ask any advice.

I do truly wish you luck in all your endeavors !
 

abj87

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
354
Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

I have your solution, very simple you provided it SEO. Just leave the 15hp outboard kicker on the boat and get rid off all the extra weight of the 2-L6 motors, and the drives, just fill in the holes in the transoms.

You will push the boat just as well as the L6's and save gas, you posted you don't care how fast you go just so you can go across that constantly calm bay with no waves and wind.

If one 15 hp outboard don't do it ,get 2. Or better yet hang a 30 hp you will go twice as fast.

One has to wonder why someone with all your vast knowledge, would have to come on to this lowly website and ask any advice.

I do truly wish you luck in all your endeavors !

no need to get all grumpy when your wrong, it happens to all of us from time to time.

Even someone who knows what there doing can use a little advice on a big decision like this.
 

seo

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Mar 14, 2009
Messages
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Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

Chiefalen,
Thanks for the good idea. I'll do the deluxe job of covering the transom holes, which means two layers of ductape instead of one. And maybe oars, instead of that 15hp?
 

seo

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Mar 14, 2009
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Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

HT32...,
Sounds like you found a great deal. What kind of boat did it go into? What did the 454 replace? Counter-rotating props seem to improve efficiency in both aircraft and boats. I don't understand why they work, whether it's simple reduction of resistance, or some improvement in the way the propwash stream works.
It's counter-intuitive, but then so are Arneson drives...
 

seo

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Mar 14, 2009
Messages
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Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

In case anyone is interested, here's a youtube clip of a Bertram 25 with a Merc dual prop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF_WD4NZZWg
That's a lot more speed than I'm looking for...

Maybe I should be thinking about a small block GM with a Volvo duo-prop.

A while ago a friend bought a '80's vintage Chevy pickup with what he called a "small block 400." I'd never heard of one, thought the big small block was a 350, the small big block was a 396. But there is such a thing. Have they ever been used in boats? How'd they turn out? My guess is that their rarity indicates that there were problems, but that suggests faith in GM's ability to walk straight and chew gum at the same time.
 

HT32BSX115

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
10,083
Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

Sounds like you found a great deal. What kind of boat did it go into? What did the 454 replace? Counter-rotating props seem to improve efficiency in both aircraft and boats. I don't understand why they work, whether it's simple reduction of resistance, or some improvement in the way the propwash stream works.
It's counter-intuitive, but then so are Arneson drives...


Mine is in my signature,

The boat did about 60 with the original 460/King Cobra and does 57 with the BIII but accelerates about twice as good as it ever did. The twin-counterrotating props reduce the prop-slip by about 1/2.

There are a lot of deals out there for similar Merccruiser engines/drives. When I found that 496HO/BIII on craigslist (for $8K) I was tempted.....

My deal (97 454/BIII for $5K) was pretty good and I have sold most of the OMC stuff I pulled out of mine...so the actual final cost will end up being close to $3k (minus my labor which is basically worth $0!)
 

Fishermark

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Oct 19, 2003
Messages
5,617
Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

A while ago a friend bought a '80's vintage Chevy pickup with what he called a "small block 400." I'd never heard of one, thought the big small block was a 350, the small big block was a 396. But there is such a thing. Have they ever been used in boats? How'd they turn out? My guess is that their rarity indicates that there were problems, but that suggests faith in GM's ability to walk straight and chew gum at the same time.

The small block Chevy actually came in several sizes - 265... 283... 302... 305... 307... 327... 350... and yes, even the 400.

The 400 was a little different when it came to cooling issues and was prone to overheating. But they are good engines otherwise.
 

seo

Cadet
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Mar 14, 2009
Messages
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Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

There was a 302 small block Chev? I thought it was Ford that went 260, 289, 302, and Chevy went 283, 305. But that was a long time ago now. I kind of miss the strange whiny-growly sound of a real Z-28 engine. It struck terror in the heart of this 289 Hi-po boy.
 

Fishermark

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Re: Repowering Bertram 25?

The 302 was not common - and was really created to satisfy certain rules within racing. The neat thing about Chevy small blocks is the interchangeability, (Is that a word? If not, it should be! :D), between them. Swap out cranks, etc and you have a new and different engine. That is a little simplistic and there are some exceptions of course - but overall a very versatile engine.
 
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