Residential wiring question.

[lckstckn2smknbrls]

Code where I live states that any outside, sink area or bathroom areas have to have GFCI circuits. And so the GFCI in the master vanity area also covers the guest bathroom and outside receptacles as well. And even when I wired my shop, I installed GFCI on all the outside receptacles. And yes the county inspector did visually inspect and sign off on all the wiring as well. So the house has only one GFCI receptacle. I guess at the time they wired the house, wire was a lot cheaper then the GFCI receptacles were. Sound expensive to run copper wires all over the house and outside to be covered by one GFCI receptacle. Had I wired the house, I am certain I would have used multiple GFCI receptacles myself.

If your present boxes are too filled. Either remove them and install deeper versions or locate the common receptacle and replace with the GFCI. Then every things down the line is covered. JMHO!

When the GFCI outlet was installed in the upstairs bathroom the wires then ran to the downstairs bathroom. If you tripped the GFCI outlet b/c of something you did in the downstairs bathroom you would have to go upstairs and hope no one was in the upstairs bathroom so you could rest the GFCI outlet. I fixed that by moving the wires to the downstairs bathroom from the load side of the upstairs GFCI outlet to the line side and installing a GFCI outlet in the downstairs bathroom.

 

[bigdee]

I would love to put in deeper boxes, the boxes are in an exterior wall with a tiled back splash.
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Is this a hollow wood frame wall? Why can't you just bust apart the old box and let it fall out of the way.....I have done it many times.

 

[lckstckn2smknbrls]

Shared neutrals must be more common then we think.
It was one of the first things listed in the "Trouble Shooting" section of the GFCI, Arc Fault breaker installation instructions.

 

[lckstckn2smknbrls]

Is this a hollow wood frame wall? Why can't you just bust apart the old box and let it fall out of the way.....I have done it many times.

Yes wood framing construction. How did you get the new box into the wall cavity?

 

[foodfisher]

Original box is "new work" A replacement box in your situation would be "old work" Easy to install with a couple screw controlled wings.

 

[bigdee]

Original box is "new work" A replacement box in your situation would be "old work" Easy to install with a couple screw controlled wings.

^^^x2^^^

 

[lckstckn2smknbrls]

Original box is "new work" A replacement box in your situation would be "old work" Easy to install with a couple screw controlled wings.

But then it would be a 2x4 box? I have 4x4 with a mud ring now, if I went to 2x4 box the conduit in and out of the box would be too short.

 

[StarTed]

I say bite the bullet and rewire it. That might involve some wall work but you'll be happier in the long run.

It sounds like your wiring is in conduit. In that case it's much easier to pull new wires but harder to replace the box.

If the neutral is shared, the circuit to the GFCI and beyond must be normal. Any sharing before the GFCI is another matter and will not affect the functioning of the GFCI.

Have you checked the voltage between the two hot legs? If there is no difference then the current on the shared neutral will be additive. If the voltage is 240 then the current on the shared part of the neutral will subtract if the load is resistive. Inductive loading will get you into algebra. You will see no difference from the face of the outlet so a GFCI will work at that point.

Remember, the current through the GFCI must be equal (the same but in opposite directions) on both the hot and neutral or it will trip.

 

[lckstckn2smknbrls]

My mistake I could connect 2 2x4 boxes together.

 

[lckstckn2smknbrls]

I say bite the bullet and rewire it. That might involve some wall work but you'll be happier in the long run.

It sounds like your wiring is in conduit. In that case it's much easier to pull new wires but harder to replace the box.

If the neutral is shared, the circuit to the GFCI and beyond must be normal. Any sharing before the GFCI is another matter and will not affect the functioning of the GFCI.

Have you checked the voltage between the two hot legs? If there is no difference then the current on the shared neutral will be additive. If the voltage is 240 then the current on the shared part of the neutral will subtract if the load is resistive. Inductive loading will get you into algebra. You will see no difference from the face of the outlet so a GFCI will work at that point.

Remember, the current through the GFCI must be equal (the same but in opposite directions) on both the hot and neutral or it will trip.

I'm thinking new wires is the way to go. Pulling wires on boxes above the counter is a pain not like pulling wires for wall switches.
First I'm going to try to install the GFCI outlet in the at the far side of the stove only 2 wires in 1/2" conduit then pull a hot lead back to what would have been the first outlet on that run.
Correction I would have to pull a hot and a neutral back to what would have been the first outlet.

 

[Tim Frank]

The panel is in the basement about a 15' run to the first outlet box in the first floor kitchen. It's not a finished basement but there is drywall on the walls and ceiling. The conduit goes straight up into the ceiling and above the furnace, so there is not a good place to put the GFCI closer to the panel.

Put it right beside the panel.
Also, maybe consider pulling a third neutral if the conduit is large enough.

 

[lckstckn2smknbrls]

Put it right beside the panel.
Also, maybe consider pulling a third neutral if the conduit is large enough.

It's 1/2" emt I can put up to 9 12 gauge wires, there are 5 wires now adding a 6th wire is good. The conduit goes out the top of the panel and is only 9" or so visible until it's into the ceiling.

 

[Tim Frank]

It's 1/2" emt I can put up to 9 12 gauge wires, there are 5 wires now adding a 6th wire is good. The conduit goes out the top of the panel and is only 9" or so visible until it's into the ceiling.

You could add an 4" x 4" box above the panel....with a 2x3 out the side ....pull the wires back from the panel....then reconnect it all with a GFCI in the 2x3. You are then adding to a layout that is open at both ends....piece of cake..

 

[sphelps]

If space allows can't you just install a deeper box for your GFCI outlet ?

 

[NYBo]

Shared neutrals are no longer allowed by the NEC.

There are slim GFCI outlets available.

 

[lckstckn2smknbrls]

If space allows can't you just install a deeper box for your GFCI outlet ?

It's a tiled exterior wall, no access from the front or back.

 

[lckstckn2smknbrls]

Shared neutrals are no longer allowed by the NEC.

There are slim GFCI outlets available.

I will look into the slim GFCI outlet.

 

[lckstckn2smknbrls]

You could add an 4" x 4" box above the panel....with a 2x3 out the side ....pull the wires back from the panel....then reconnect it all with a GFCI in the 2x3. You are then adding to a layout that is open at both ends....piece of cake..

This is an interesting idea.
I would still have a shared neutral and don't know if that would cause the GFCI outlet to trip like it causes the GFCI, Arc fault combo breaker to trip.

 

[alldodge]

The thin GFCI outlet are only about 3/8 inch thinner and 15AMP compared to standard 20AMP

 

[bruceb58]

This is an interesting idea.
I would still have a shared neutral and don't know if that would cause the GFCI outlet to trip like it causes the GFCI, Arc fault combo breaker to trip.

It would be fine. A GFCI is comparing the neutral and the hot current at the GFCI outlet itself.

When you make comments like this, it makes me wonder. Have you thought about hiring an electrician to help you out?