resin mixing tips and techniques

[BillP]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

It seems with all those credentials my questions could have been answered with ease already...but sure, post your chemist number and I will call them (I called DuPont chemist many times when I was...mfg plant mgr, 24 yrs, 100 acres, 1.2m sq ft, 4000+ employees & 3500 very nasty chemicals used in production). Nope, not my first rodeo either. Whatever, I imagine the reason you see people in factories who are stubborn to your suggestions is because they aren't getting specific questions answered. Few pro production mgrs are going to change their 30 yrs of success based on anything verbal from a rep or consultant without hard scientific or engineering data to back it up. A backyard canoe builder might listen but not SeaRay, Boston Whaler, etc.. I can understand a production mgr not exactly believing it if at the same time a rep is also saying squeegees work better than ribbed rollers in boat production...it would be difficult (probably impossible) to find someone who glasses boats for a living and convince them squeegees are better, faster, easier, etc than rib rollers for removing air. Also, I don't know about boat mfg facilites outside of Florida but few to zero here have climate control in their glassing areas. From bottom dweller shops to high end luxury types they are ambient air. They reg kick time with catalyst % and use daily temp and humidity as the benchmark.

 

[Robj]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

I am going back 20 years, but I recall taking an engineering materials course in college and fibreglass was covered very briefly. What I do remember is if you add too much catalyst, the polymer chains tend to be short and brittle, and not as strong. Whereas when you add the correct ratio of catalyst, the chains are longer and hence stronger. While this is very much a generalization, I am sure that the same principles apply, to some degree anyway, today.

Have a great day,

Rob.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

That's funny, I've worked at and with all of the Sea Ray facilities in the US, including the one's in Florida and their PD&E department there. We were able to convert almost all of their business over to the products I was selling, oh, that's while I was in charge of the Marine market in North America for a gel coat company. A very good friend of mine still works for Sea Ray, he's currently in China working as a production manager and consultant building large boats.
I didn't work with B/W that much, just a little while some of their models were being made at the Baja plant up north.

I wouldn't second guess your opinions on whatever it was you were doing for those 24 years as a plant manager, or expect to know more details about the products you made, as I would expect you to be an expert in that field. You didn't give your credentials in the area of fiberglass though.

I have nothing to hide and have no problem with being challenged by difficult questions, but giving exact answers to general questions about all polyester resins is not the goal here (iboats) and the chemistry is too different between formulas to speak in more than generalities, but I can supply that information on individual resins we make. It's a little tough to do it over the weekend when I have no access to the research data from the lab though. If you would like to go to our website, you can look up the data sheets for many of our products, this way you can see what is and isn't recommended for each one. I will also supply you with the inside # for any of our chemists, this way you can discuss with them the exact chemistry behind each product and why we make the recommendations we do. Would you like to talk with a resin chemist, or gel coat chemist? I will PM you my phone # and you can call me on Monday so I can get you in contact with them. I will also email you an application manual if you want, it will discuss these issues and many more.

I'm sorry you're hung up on the squeegee thing, no one tool works well in all situations and squeegees do have their place. By the way, I didn't say it would work better in every situation, I said it would work well on something like a floor.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

I almost forgot. It's not difficult to convince large companies of the basics of polyester chemistry, like don't over or under catalyze the resin. It is frequently much more difficult to convince the small canoe builder of these basics.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

Salty

Check your PM's for info on getting the manual, I need your email address to send it.

And I'm sorry for turning this thread into something you didn't ask for.

 

[rebuilt]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

Hi. I can only recount what works for me. I'm not a technically savvy resin guy like ondarvr. That was no put down, his company makes the stuff. He knows it cold.
I picked up some cheap plastic 12oz cups from Wallie World. The clear ridged kind. While I was there, I also went to the pharmacy and picked up some small medicine dosage cups. They are graduated in CC's. 1 CC = 1 ML. 1 fluid cup, 8oz, is almost exactly 250 ml's. A nice even number to work with. I took a measuring cup, filled it with water to the 1 cup line, then poured that into the clear plastic cups. I made a note of which line on the plastic cups was 8oz, or roughly 250 ml. To be exact, 8.45oz=250ML. It's easy from there. Using the little dosage cup, 1% mekp is right at 2.5 ml, for 8 oz, 2% is right at 5ml. The tinier incremental mekp percentages are broken up in the middle of those 2. Say for instance, 1.5% is about 3.75ml. I don't count drops. I use % by volume. It's a lot more accurate, and easier to make an adjustment for weather, slower pot life, or if you need a fast kick, whatever. A home improvement box store also carries quart size tubs and up in the paint dept. that are graduated by volume for bigger batches. After it kicks, I just peel the cured resin out and use it again, if I can. Or I just count cups of resin dumped into a cutoff, cleaned out milk jug, but I still use the trusty medicine dosage cup for the catalyst. May sound goofy, but it works for me.Hope this helps. KR

 

[salty87]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

Salty

Check your PM's for info on getting the manual, I need your email address to send it.

And I'm sorry for turning this thread into something you didn't ask for.

email has been sent. thread has turned more interesting than i first thought. good suggestions and more.


temps are turning cooler here (central tx), probably until spring. i had a nice window of good temps but couldn't get it all together in time. how am i looking for using poly on 60+/- degree days?

 

[rebuilt]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

60 is great! Shouldn't even have to adjust catalyst for that. I've read that 50 is the minimum, but I take exeption to that. Mine cured out with a low of 38, high of 49 at 1% mekp. You can experiment with the catalyst ratio. ondarvr did a better job of explaining the limits of catalyzing than I can. Simply stated, too much is no good, too little, even if it appears cured is no good. Rule of thumb... 1 to 2 %. 2% went too fast for me. I like a little longer pot life. There are some variables, like the depth or mass of the resin to be cured. The thicker the layup, the quicker the kick with the same amount of catalyst. More mass....more heat. A real thin fairing putty job would take more catalyst than a 3 layer roving mat layup in cool weather. Good luck. Temps in the 60's would be great! I'm sure many of our northern friends would love to be mixing resin in the 60's. KR

 

[BillP]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

That's funny, I've worked at and with all of the Sea Ray facilities in the US, including the one's in Florida and their PD&E department there. We were able to convert almost all of their business over to the products I was selling, oh, that's while I was in charge of the Marine market in North America for a gel coat company. A very good friend of mine still works for Sea Ray, he's currently in China working as a production manager and consultant building large boats.
I didn't work with B/W that much, just a little while some of their models were being made at the Baja plant up north.

I wouldn't second guess your opinions on whatever it was you were doing for those 24 years as a plant manager, or expect to know more details about the products you made, as I would expect you to be an expert in that field. You didn't give your credentials in the area of fiberglass though.

I have nothing to hide and have no problem with being challenged by difficult questions, but giving exact answers to general questions about all polyester resins is not the goal here (iboats) and the chemistry is too different between formulas to speak in more than generalities, but I can supply that information on individual resins we make. It's a little tough to do it over the weekend when I have no access to the research data from the lab though. If you would like to go to our website, you can look up the data sheets for many of our products, this way you can see what is and isn't recommended for each one. I will also supply you with the inside # for any of our chemists, this way you can discuss with them the exact chemistry behind each product and why we make the recommendations we do. Would you like to talk with a resin chemist, or gel coat chemist? I will PM you my phone # and you can call me on Monday so I can get you in contact with them. I will also email you an application manual if you want, it will discuss these issues and many more.

I'm sorry you're hung up on the squeegee thing, no one tool works well in all situations and squeegees do have their place. By the way, I didn't say it would work better in every situation, I said it would work well on something like a floor.

Seems you take your credentials as a free passage to not back up your generic statements with hard data. All I asked for was a basic threshold value of what 3% catalyst does to polyester resin...for ONE of your resins. It hasn't happened yet. Do you want to try? Just pick one of your resins and fill in the "XX" blanks:

XX resin is weakened XX% at XX% catalyst @ XX F temp.

Don't come back with it's too complex or not useful on this forum and only a chemist can say. I'm a member here and it certainly can be said in laymans terms and is useful to me. I've heard enough about glassers who don't listen, resumes, who you know, where you've been or SeaRay changing their operation to your products. They have nothing to do with accurate engineering data that an individual can use to calcuate and benchmark his risk with high catalyst use.

bp

 

[salty87]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

rebuilt

how did you measure out your resin and hardener? drops, measuring cups, weight?

i read your shareproject...it answered some of my questions already. i also read about the styrene. any other practical insights or others tips for making things right and easier?

thx

 

[ondarvr]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

BillP


You didn't call me, but I did get you the names and phone#s of some people to talk with, after you talk with them please report back. It appears you didn't want an application manual, but some here do have copies now, so if they want, they can comment on it, it goes into much greater detail than what is discussed here. You can still go to "ccponline.com" then click on products, then composites, from there you can pick either resin or gel coat. You will find data sheets for many of our products and it will list catalyst % and other details.
I tried to post a data sheet, but it was too large, if someone here has the time and wants to resize or scan and post it, that would great.

If someone would like to look them up, check these.
For laminating resin a common product would be LHP or LSP.
For gel coat a 944 or 963 would be typical.

As I stated before, I do not want to start an argument about the basics, I only want to pass on accurate information on how to get the best results from resin and gel coat.

 

[BillP]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

For this? Not likely on my nickle dude.

Lets try this again...does the info you offer provide any measurable data about what catalyst ratios higher than 2.4% do than "probably" make it weaker, etc.?

XX resin is weakened ? % @ 3% catalyst
? % @ 4%
? % @ 5%
? % @ 6%
? % @ 7%
? % @ 8%


bp

 

[ondarvr]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

BillP

I have requested the data from the lab, they said they will find the research data on it. I can tell you this internet conversation with you is not the most important thing on their plate, they said they would get to it when they could.

Did you go to the website and look at any of the data sheets and see what they recommend? Did you download a copy of the application manual? it appears not. Now after saying you would call our lab, or tech service people that could better explain the actual chemistry behind it and the research they did (because they formulated the products), you say you're not going to. I'm very sorry if our lab doesn't react fast enough for you, or you refuse to call, there's not much more I can do to speed it up, or make you talk with them.

I stand behind everything I said and when I get the data I'll post it.

 

[BillP]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

BillP

I have requested the data from the lab, they said they will find the research data on it. I can tell you this internet conversation with you is not the most important thing on their plate, they said they would get to it when they could.

Did you go to the website and look at any of the data sheets and see what they recommend? Did you download a copy of the application manual? it appears not. Now after saying you would call our lab, or tech service people that could better explain the actual chemistry behind it and the research they did (because they formulated the products), you say you're not going to. I'm very sorry if our lab doesn't react fast enough for you, or you refuse to call, there's not much more I can do to speed it up, or make you talk with them.

I stand behind everything I said and when I get the data I'll post it.

Calling you and lab guys isn't high on my priority list either...but I've been patiently waiting for you to provide an answer of substance. I may call someday but being semi retired means I'm in no hurry to do anything. Fast tracking for me went away in 2003.

So tell me, what "research data" are you asking them for? I suppose it's the fact to back up that too much catalyst damages resin? I didn't ask for that or about the "actual chemistry behind it", manuals or material saftey data sheets. Do any of them have the info I requested...nope.

As I said in my response to your PM to me...I know "too" much catalyst is damaging and have never "challenged" (in your words) that fact in any way, shape or fashion. I never asked what catalyst is recommended, for an application manual or data sheets...which you are hung up on as an appropriate answer. What I have been asking for in many different ways is how to measure the damage that different levels of catalyst do to resin when mixed over the recommended ratios.

Sure, stand behind everything you've said...but try to understand that my question on catalyst is not about being right or wrong.

bp

 

[ondarvr]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

Yes, I am asking them for the detailed information on what % of catalyst it takes to start reducing the physicals of a resin and what percent it reduces those physical properties for each % of increase in catalyst.

That's the problem, no recent testing has been done in that manner, we normally test the % of cure in our analytical lab in a method that does not test for the actual strength of the laminate, only % of cure. We can then tell at what levels we get the best cure, which directly relates to strength, but the strength itself is not tested. Also we don't normally test beyond the point of seeing where the cure begins to lessen, so no data is recorded after that point. The range we recommend for catalyst % is set by this form of testing and we assume that people using our products would want the best possible results, so to achieve those results they should stay within the recommended range.

I wanted you to talk with the lab chemists and catalyst experts so they could explain this to you and answer your questions in much more detail than I can here.

Being retired you may not be as aware that this is a short holiday week and how that affects what takes place in an office or lab. Most of the senior personnel are out for the week and the ones left in the lab are just trying to wrap things up and take a long weekend. They don't feel like searching through files for data that has no real importance other than satisfying your curiosity. If you were a current customer and wanted your resin tested in this way, we would do all of the testing and give a complete report for the exact resin you use. We would do this for a potential customer too, but so far we have never been asked to do the testing in this way, at least not that I know of (I'm sure it's been done in the past for internal use though).

The reason it may not have been asked in this way, is that builders want to know what the strength of the product is when used as recommended. If they know we recommend not going past 2.4%, then there is no reason for them to do it, to change gel times, they can use a different type of catalyst, or buy a different gel time resin. These are both approved methods of getting the correct gel time, over or under catalyzing never is, and they know it. These facts are well known by large companies that do a great deal of testing, they are less well known by smaller shops that can't afford the testing.

 

[Old Salt Oz]

Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

G'day Salty87,

Use wide shallow containers when mixing, the larger surface area will help dissipate the heat generated and reduce the risk of shortened pot life.

Use Latex gloves, chap in a box of 100 Pr's.

Use measuring jugs, spoons cups or anything you like, you can fill any container with a known volume of water and mark the level for resin, only the mixed resin and catalyst needs to be shallow.
Catalyst must be a minimum of 1% and not exceed 2% you van use volume or weight as the variation between the two in very small.
Buy a catalyst dispenser, cheap and last about a year, very easy to use.

It is better to mix too little than too much, adding more costs nothing, throwing some away gets expensive.

Apply resin with a 10mm nap roller, I prefer the 80mm wide roller for small areas and a 180mm for larger areas.

Don't rush, your first objective is to wet out the glass, not get it all pretty, wet an area and after a couple of minutes the binders in the fibreglass will start to dissolve and the glass will flow into the required shape with little effort provided there are no sharp corners, round them off before you start.
You can get a very smooth finish on flat areas using a squeegee provided you have ensured there were no pin holes after wetting out with your 10mm nap roller, timing is most important, the resin will a state of cure that allows you to skim across a flat area, not removing any resin but glossing the surface finish.

Also note:
Poly resins do not stick to timber nor to old poly resin as well as epoxy resins. Never use a poly resin to seal timber unless it's completely encapsulated like a stringer, bearing in mind even this is doomed to fail as poly resin is not as water resistant as epoxy resins. One of the reasons boat builders no longer use timber stringers today; they use foam to form the required shape and add extra layers of glass to give the same strength but less weight than timber.

Acetone may look expensive on the shelf, however, never wash your tool and throw away the dirty acetone; place in a glass jar with a tight lid and let it stand for a day or two, you will be able to reuse 75% of it after the debris has sunk to the bottom.

I use both types of resin every day, boat building, repairs, modifications and waterproofing buildings as part of my business.

I hope this helps.

Avagoodweekend......