Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

[PlayD0h]

Hi
So I did an extensive search, and found some info and a couple suggestions on rivets. I figured rivets deserve a thread on their own, and would probably help out people in my situation. Perhaps the advice gathered here could render this "sticky" worthy? I'd think SC rivets wouldn't be exactly the same as other brands of boat either.

From what I've gathered, Aluminum with steel mandrel are best for the deck wood, but not sure about hull use. Plus coating the rivet with 3M 5200 is best.

As for Body Diameter, Dome Type, Grip Range, Max. Length, Mandrel Material and Brand I'm unsure to say the least.

I have a couple broken rivets in the gull (keel/strake), and I plan on doing a complete restoration soon, so I'll need every type and size for that. I live in Canada and I think I'll be buying online, so I'd like to get Everything at the same time.

Here's my main questions.

What Body Diameter, Dome Type, Grip Range, Max. Length, Mandrel Material and Brand do I need for the
1) Hull
2) Deck
3) General interior

- 3M 5200 on all rivets installed?

- Tools & Riveters?

- Places to buy? And/or Brands?

- General Riveting advice or tips?

It sounds like even the cheapest Riveter will do, yet a HD one will make life easier. I don't imagine I'll be doing more then 100 so I don't plan on spending over $100 on riveters unless I see good reason.

I was thinking one like this would do


And one of these for tight spaces


Thanks for any help

 

[dozerII]

Re: Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

Hey Paul, Princess auto has an air powered riveter that does 99% of my riveting, they also sell a hand one. Great prices and they work great. Fastenal has or can get any rivets you need, there are a couple in Calgary I believe. I lean toward Aluminum/aluminum rivets for almost everything, as the shanks don't rust. The only ones I go with Steel/ Aluminum are the long ones for the deck. The steel shank pulls down a little tighter, I also use the ones with large heads for the deck so they will not pull through the plywood.
Glen

 

[PlayD0h]

Re: Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

Thanks Glen, very helpful.
All I need to figure out is size. I'd guess 1/8", and maybe I can pull one of the broken ones out to measure. I suppose I could buy a variety of 3/16", 5/32", 1/8", 3/32", yet at ********* that could get expensive.

 

[dozerII]

Re: Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

All the rivets I use are 3/16 diameter.

 

[PlayD0h]

Re: Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

Awesome Glen, thanks so much. I might have to name my SS after you when all is said and done.

 

[jonny d]

Re: Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

I'm reflooring my Starcraft & found McMaster-Carr has all the sizes & quantities of rivets you will need. www.mcmaster.com

 

[PlayD0h]

Re: Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

Thanks Jonny D.

 

[mrgintz]

Re: Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

even 3/16 diameter rivets for hull's wobbly rivets replacement?

Mrgintz

 

[Gnarly]

Re: Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

give rivetec a call, self sealing 5200 series with aluminum mandrels are what you need
http://www.tec-n-tec.com/English/RiveTec/SeltecAN.htm
you can pull them with the princess auto gun and use 5200 or Pro seal 870 ( much better , available at aviall) to set them wet with

here's how I dealt with my islander if your interested
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=350280

 

[Grandad]

Re: Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

Hi PlayDOh,
How's progress? If you haven't yet ordered your rivets --
I used 3/16" solid rivets on the hull of my "72 Starcraft Holiday. I think that's the standard diameter for these boats. Got them at Aircraft Spruce, an international company with a branch in Ontario that you can order from. I'd recommend using solid rivets as opposed to "pop" rivets on the hull. This assumes you will have access to both sides such as when the floor is out. My first and only experience installing solid rivets went pretty smoothly. I already had an air compressor and a .401" air chisel. A .401" rivet tool attachment that fits the universal head rivets that I used costs less than $10. I read online that this is not a good substitute for a "real" rivet gun, but it worked flawlessly for the 60 rivets I installed. I used a 1" round steel bar about a foot long to flatten/buck the rivet stem as my partner applied the riveter to the heads on the outside of the hull. Your bucking bar should not be overly heavy, as it should dance/hammer on the end of the rivet. Keep the air pressure controlled (40 PSI or less?) so the gun doesn't jump off the head and do a dance on your hull.

I followed internet advice to use rivets that extend through the material about one and a half times the diameter of the rivet shank and got a good solid result. Aircraft Spruce offers 2 different tensile strength rivets. I ordered some soft as well as higher tensile rivets. I used the stronger ones when my experimenting gave favourable results. I'm not sure which ones are best for corrosion, but there's no more salt water in Alberta than here in Ontario. Note that you can order as little as 1/8 lb, so the price is reasonable. - Grandad

http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/hapages/solidalumrivets2.php

 

[PlayD0h]

Re: Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

Thanks Grandad and Gnarly. I'll look in to the solid rivets as I haven't boughten anything yet.

By those calculations regarding the 'grip' length, 7/16 should be the grip I need? 3/16 times x 2.5 = 15/32". Or if by "one and a half times the diameter you mean 3/16 x 1.5 = 9/32, so the 5/16 would be best. Sorry, I'm still confused.

I also looked into Pro seal 870 and aviall, but there are a few variations of PS 870
PROSEAL PS870A1/2 SEMKIT
PROSEAL PS870A1/2 USP KIT STM40-111 CLASS A1/2
PROSEAL PS870A2 1USP MIL-PRF-81733D, TYPE1, C1 A2
PROSEAL PS870B1/2 100ML SEMKIT BMS5-95 TYPE 1 CLASS B1/2

Also I can't find any PS 870 related through the aviall website, but it looks like their pretty diversified and don't deal with public retail much. I'm sure I'd have to make a dozen calls to get anywhere.

 

[Gnarly]

Re: Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

You'll want to use the 870 B 2 in a pint kit ( not semkit) , it has a two hour pot life versus 1/2 hour for the B 1/2 and will last 40 years in a wet aircraft wing immersed in jet fuel with no issues ,
Riveting with solids isnt a hard process but takes practice to develop like any other skill , if you can get to both sides go ahead and use solids but a little education is a wonderful thing. All 20 series aluminum is alloyed with copper which includes 2117 AD rivets (dimple in the center of the head) MS20470 or MS20426 being most common (used extensively in aviation) , even if you are not in salt water I wouldnt recomend it simply because you are still providing a difference in potential and will have galvanic action to one degree or another, any 50 series aluminum rivet would be far superior (5056 B rivets with a raised cross on the head) but its your boat, just remember rivets work primarily in shear and not tension and unless the skin is stressed or the item is structural you most likely would never know the difference between a solid and a pull rivet.
If you overdrive a solid you will most likely work harden and crack the shop head (upset portion) and to develop the first bump to upset and fill the hole then drive the rivet in one application will take a bit of practice so make sure you bang some metal together before attacking your boat.
Rivet guns (4x would be a good choice ) are available from a number of vendors, my favorite is the yard in Kansas http://www.yardstore.com/index.htm, you'll need set's and a couple of bucking bars , best to set the throttle on the gun by inserting the set and pressing down on a 2x4 and gently teasing the throttle while adjusting the air pressure until you can comfortably tease a couple of bumps to initially upset and drive with control. If you bugger up the odd rivet just drill it out and try again but the cleaner, tighter and rounder the hole the better the rivet will turn out. Always use the beehive spring to retain the set and wear eye protection
Best of luck

( I dont recommend using an air hammer , cold working and failure of the rivet are almost guaranteed) the heavier the bucking bar the more control you'll have but choice of bar will depend on access, its hard to do good work with a tiny light bar jammed in a nasty place and if its not structural save yourself the drama and use a pull rivet.
just my .02 and its worth exactly what you paid for it

 

[Grandad]

Re: Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

Thanks Grandad and Gnarly. I'll look in to the solid rivets as I haven't boughten anything yet.

By those calculations regarding the 'grip' length, 7/16 should be the grip I need? 3/16 times x 2.5 = 15/32". Or if by "one and a half times the diameter you mean 3/16 x 1.5 = 9/32, so the 5/16 would be best. Sorry, I'm still confused.

I mean 3/16 x 1.5 = 9/32. So, using a 3/16" dia rivet, it should extend through the sandwiched material by 9/32" before bucking. And I defer to gnarly's knowledge and experience in regard to corrosion. Mine are in and they're gonna stay. I keep my boat on a trailer, so it's dry 99.9% of the time. If I was doing it over, I would investigate what gnarly said about the copper content and corrosion. - Grandad

 

[PlayD0h]

Re: Rivets and Riveters. What and where to buy? Advice?

WOW, you guys rock. I'm glad I only have 2 rivets to replace immediately since I'd like to 'read up' and get everything to do it right, first.

Thanks for the SP 870 specifics, that stuff sounds awesome.

I think I'll stick with the pop rivets for my 2 keel rivets, and try to do as little as possible to gain access to the area. Next winter, if I can wait that long, when I take the deck out I'll know rivets in and out, and have better skills perhaps to do all the riveting. I've only done rivet work, at work many moons ago, and never had to chose the right rivet for the job.