Sae 40

[Bluestream]

Re: Sae 40

I can.
I get better mileage (1 mpg increase over conventional which adds up considering I commute 415 miles each week). My engines have 0 deposits in them even running at 7-10K oil change intervals. All those engine builders who pick up 5-10hp switching from mineral oil to full synthetic tend to agree that you gain power.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/synthetic_vs_mineral_motor_oil/index.html

There is no SAE or any other credible automotive research to prove that synthetic oil will give better mileage. The article you linked to has several inaccuracies. Mostly the test they did was not done using scientific controls and has no validity at all. Only a test done in laboratory conditions would yield real data, and there has never been a test done that gave results that synthetic oil gave any better mileage. If that were true, then friction would have to be less than with conventional oil and it is not. Also, the author of that article has no clue what synthetic oil is made from. It is basically a group I or Group II conventional base stock that has bee refined to a higher level. Contrary to popular belief, synthetic oil is not made in a lab by mixing chemicals in a test tubes.

Quote some primary research to back up your point, and not some guys doing there own back yard test for a magazine.

 

[veritas honus]

Re: Sae 40

20 years ago, oils were much different than today. Multi-grade oils were not as durable, the additive package was inferior, and synthetics were in their infancy.

Times change. Products change. "thick" oils have fallen out of favor, and for good reason.

Have "thick oils" fallen out of favor for any reason other than fuel economy? You say "...And for good reason." What is the reasoning behind this?

PS: Thank you

Safe and happy boating always!!!

 

[veritas honus]

Re: Sae 40

Thank you everyone for the responses. The juries still out... I'd love to get better fuel economy; but not as a tradeoff for protection. I'm really not at all concerned with the synthetic oil lasting longer than conventional. I change my oil more often than necessarry. I want the best protection I can get. How much better will the fuel economy be, switching from SAE 40 to SAE 30? I live in The South. It's hot. Am I not better protected with the heavier oil?
I've read previous threads on oil on iboats, but one never knows what one new little piece of information may reveal.
Please keep the responses coming.

Safe and happy boating always!!!

 

[veritas honus]

Re: Sae 40

After reading many of the dreaded "oil threads" over the year, I defaulted to the people that built the thing (merc 5.7) and used old school SAE 40, although it was a little harder to find than SAE 30, as in O'Reilly didn't have it, had to go to Autozone. Use whatever you want, but it has been said here many times that boat motors don't fail cause you changed to the wrong oil. I have also found, regarding my car, that I can ask 2 different seasoned, capable mechanics about oil, one says "its all the same, just change it at a reasonable clip", to the other guy telling me to buy synthetic. Pick what you think is best, sleep well knowing you changed it. Just my .02, good luck

My engine is 19 years old. I've got about twenty hours on the oil that's in it now. It looks like it just came out of the container. She runs like she's brand new. Purrs like a kitten and screams like an eagle. I don't sleep enough, but I dream of a 33-36' cruiser or luxury sport fisher in 10-15 years and my children (now 2 and 7), asking if they can take out the Chaparral.

PS: Your .02 is welcome any time, brhodes.

Safe and happy boating always!!!

 

[fossill]

Re: Sae 40

I live in The South. It's hot.

Doesn't matter how hot it's there. Your boat engine is still only running at 160-170 degrees. That same engine in a car is running at 210-215 under the same conditions and running a 5W-30 viscosity oil.

 

[NHGuy]

Re: Sae 40

Many engine builder types like the straight weight old school oils since they still contain zinc. That ingredient is supposed to be an added measure of protection for your cam where it contacts your lifters. Apparently that's not as big an issue when the engine has more exotic valve actuation components. Roller lifters and roller rockers theoretically do just fine with non zinc oils.
I used Pennzoil 40 weight from the marine parts store near work last time. My boat still acts the same as it did on the 15W40 from last year.
I do run at wide open throttle once in a while, and I run 80% throttle quite a bit. My 22 year old motor sounds and runs fine. I expect it to to last indefinitely, it only runs about 50 hours or so most years. The reason I expect the motor to last is because the boat doesn't weigh very much so the motor doesn't have to pull so hard on takeoffs like it would have to in a heavy boat.

 

[veritas honus]

Re: Sae 40

Many engine builder types like the straight weight old school oils since they still contain zinc. That ingredient is supposed to be an added measure of protection for your cam where it contacts your lifters. Apparently that's not as big an issue when the engine has more exotic valve actuation components. Roller lifters and roller rockers theoretically do just fine with non zinc oils.
I used Pennzoil 40 weight from the marine parts store near work last time. My boat still acts the same as it did on the 15W40 from last year.
I do run at wide open throttle once in a while, and I run 80% throttle quite a bit. My 22 year old motor sounds and runs fine. I expect it to to last indefinitely, it only runs about 50 hours or so most years. The reason I expect the motor to last is because the boat doesn't weigh very much so the motor doesn't have to pull so hard on takeoffs like it would have to in a heavy boat.

Zinc content factor makes sense. I wasn't familiar with that at all. Changing from 15W40 to SAE40, the only noticable difference I'd excpect would be faster starts in cold weather. If your not starting the boat in cold weather, then I wouldn't expect any noticable difference. During the time that the oil is at a lower viscosity until it warms up to operating temperature, there is more metal to metal contact, thus, more engine wear. What does your boat weigh? It's 19'? with a 5.7L. Mine weighs 3000lbs empty. I have a 4.3L. I don't run WOT a lot; but it's so much fun. I certainly don't abuse my boat. Sometimes ya just gotta play a little.

Safe and happy boating always!!!

 

[Bluestream]

Re: Sae 40

Doesn't matter how hot it's there. Your boat engine is still only running at 160-170 degrees. That same engine in a car is running at 210-215 under the same conditions and running a 5W-30 viscosity oil.

It actually does matter how hot it is. The coolant may run 160-170, but the oil temp is totally different. Marine engines run hot oil temps to to the high loads they are under. A 5W30 is a bad choice, unless you only put on 10 hours per year. That oil will shear down very fast in a marine engine.

25W40 is an ideal choice for all conditions. Also a HDEO in 15W40 is used by many, although I have not seen it recommended By any Mfg.

 

[veritas honus]

Re: Sae 40

It actually does matter how hot it is. The coolant may run 160-170, but the oil temp is totally different. Marine engines run hot oil temps to to the high loads they are under. A 5W30 is a bad choice, unless you only put on 10 hours per year. That oil will shear down very fast in a marine engine.

25W40 is an ideal choice for all conditions. Also a HDEO in 15W40 is used by many, although I have not seen it recommended By any Mfg.

This is why beating a dead horse is good sometimes... If you only learn one little new thing or catch a refreshed insight, it's all worth it. Besides, the horse doesn't feel a thing. Thanks Bluestream.

Safe and happy boating always!!!

 

[kmarine]

Re: Sae 40

Try a tractor dealership or farm-fleet store. You would be better off witn a straight 30 oil than a 15 w 40 The hd 30 weight will be less likely to break down. Marine engines run at a higher rpm for long periods unlike cars. I pay about $4 quart for siearra marine 25-40 When I purchase 5 or more cases. SAE HD 30 penzoil at wallmart by me is $350. The reason I do mot like to switch to synthedic is that your engine was broke in on conventional. That has soaked into the metal. bearings and rings. I use synthedic on new engines and recomend it. But have heard of claims by my oil distributor of catistrophic failure on older engines. I have no hard evidence , only advice from people I trust.

 

[backyard mechanic]

Re: Sae 40

The question asked is why use synthetics and why not stay with a straight 40 wt dinosaur oil.

Petroleum oil molecules are not uniform and they are carbon based. Think of it as sand and gravel mix... Lot's of space without lubrication and that's not the protection I want in my engine! Uniform molecules of smaller size (think fine sand) will do better for oiling your engine.

Secondly synthetic oil is not a carbon base oil so the oil will not burn at ignition temperatures and create a carbon ring or leave deposits that petroleum base oils do. The fact is synthetics do not have lower burn off temperatures, are better lubricants because they are uniform, get into smaller spaces and create less wear/metal to metal start ups and will literally clean the carbon from your ring lands etc making for a far more efficient burn and more power.

The idea that synthetics create oil leaks is not exactly true. If your carbon base oils have created a carbon ring around a seal surface, allowed for burned/hardened rubber seals, or has a varnish buildup you are better off not to switch. That is because when you switch to synthetics it cleans that carbon and varnish out. It even softens the seals! So; yes... the seals may leak. That's a testament to the benefit of synthetic oil! The cleaner the engine, the better, longer lasting engine. Indeed fuel economy may improve because of it but the real benefit is engine longevity.

The API (American Petroleum Institute) says that 90% of engine wear occurs at start up. If you use a 40 wt oil, the time from the engine starting to a good amount of oil flowing is a fairly long time. The time increases exponentially especially with lower temperature variations and greater still with heavier oil. Now think about a higher viscosity motor oil staying attached to the cylinder walls, pistons and other parts/bearings etc (because of the molecule size getting in where the bigger molecules don't) and think lighter weights like 5-40. Now when you start up you get lubrication to lessen the wear at start up, faster oil pressure benefits. Say nothing of a far better oil to lubricate in cold and hot temperatures.

Now go even further... petroleum base motor oils have higher amounts of sulfur. (Ever notice the sticker on the diesel pump saying low sulfur?) Mix water (a bi-product of all combustion engines) and sulfur together and you get sludge. Additives in multi-viscosity oils help prevent sludge now a days but with synthetics the issue is moot. There is no sulfur in synthetics.

Now you ask yourself... is there any benefit to using synthetics? Hey look, don't take my word for it, go to API.com and read up. EVEN the petroleum oil folks encourage synthetics but in either case they ALWAYS recommend 5-20. Check it out....

 

[veritas honus]

Re: Sae 40

Try a tractor dealership or farm-fleet store. You would be better off witn a straight 30 oil than a 15 w 40 The hd 30 weight will be less likely to break down. Marine engines run at a higher rpm for long periods unlike cars. I pay about $4 quart for siearra marine 25-40 When I purchase 5 or more cases. SAE HD 30 penzoil at wallmart by me is $350. The reason I do mot like to switch to synthedic is that your engine was broke in on conventional. That has soaked into the metal. bearings and rings. I use synthedic on new engines and recomend it. But have heard of claims by my oil distributor of catistrophic failure on older engines. I have no hard evidence , only advice from people I trust.

When you say "older engines", are you refering to early 90's or 60's/70's and older? Older, like most things is subjective. My seven year old son thinks fifteen is old "...no hard evidence, only advice from people I trust."... Hmmm... sounds kinda like... What iboats was founded on I love this forum.

 

[veritas honus]

Re: Sae 40

The question asked is why use synthetics and why not stay with a straight 40 wt dinosaur oil.

Petroleum oil molecules are not uniform and they are carbon based. Think of it as sand and gravel mix... Lot's of space without lubrication and that's not the protection I want in my engine! Uniform molecules of smaller size (think fine sand) will do better for oiling your engine.

Secondly synthetic oil is not a carbon base oil so the oil will not burn at ignition temperatures and create a carbon ring or leave deposits that petroleum base oils do. The fact is synthetics do not have lower burn off temperatures, are better lubricants because they are uniform, get into smaller spaces and create less wear/metal to metal start ups and will literally clean the carbon from your ring lands etc making for a far more efficient burn and more power.

The idea that synthetics create oil leaks is not exactly true. If your carbon base oils have created a carbon ring around a seal surface, allowed for burned/hardened rubber seals, or has a varnish buildup you are better off not to switch. That is because when you switch to synthetics it cleans that carbon and varnish out. It even softens the seals! So; yes... the seals may leak. That's a testament to the benefit of synthetic oil! The cleaner the engine, the better, longer lasting engine. Indeed fuel economy may improve because of it but the real benefit is engine longevity.

The API (American Petroleum Institute) says that 90% of engine wear occurs at start up. If you use a 40 wt oil, the time from the engine starting to a good amount of oil flowing is a fairly long time. The time increases exponentially especially with lower temperature variations and greater still with heavier oil. Now think about a higher viscosity motor oil staying attached to the cylinder walls, pistons and other parts/bearings etc (because of the molecule size getting in where the bigger molecules don't) and think lighter weights like 5-40. Now when you start up you get lubrication to lessen the wear at start up, faster oil pressure benefits. Say nothing of a far better oil to lubricate in cold and hot temperatures.

Now go even further... petroleum base motor oils have higher amounts of sulfur. (Ever notice the sticker on the diesel pump saying low sulfur?) Mix water (a bi-product of all combustion engines) and sulfur together and you get sludge. Additives in multi-viscosity oils help prevent sludge now a days but with synthetics the issue is moot. There is no sulfur in synthetics.

Now you ask yourself... is there any benefit to using synthetics? Hey look, don't take my word for it, go to API.com and read up. EVEN the petroleum oil folks encourage synthetics but in either case they ALWAYS recommend 5-20. Check it out....

So is SAE 40 available in synthetic?

 

[kmarine]

Re: Sae 40

When I say older it is more of a refference to number of hours engine was ran with conventional oil. I have ran synthedic in my truck from the first oil change and now have 240k miles on this truck. This is my new truck. My old truck has 325k miles using conventional oil. I believe regular maintenance and keeping up with tune ups make a better argument than how many years it sat in the garage. Most conventional oil have plenty of additives that help narrow the difference.

 

[444]

Re: Sae 40

Some of you guys crack me up. Reminds me of of when my grandpa ran the family small town gas station decades ago and people would demand straight 30w oil for their lawn mowers. They wouldn't believe a 10-30 would be just fine, so he happily brought in 30w to sell to them at a 100% markup.

Some of you guys also seem to not know that many cars of yesteryear ran at a very high rpm. Back then guys with muscle cars with decent gears out back had to scream down the highway at 4000rpm. No overdrive transmissions back then. Same with the pickup trucks, lots of them were revving pretty good down the highway back then too. You drove, you burned a bit more fuel and that's just the way it was. Sound familiar?

I would be very careful if you're running a straight 30w oil. Much of the straight 30w oil out there is non-detergent oil. I do use it sometimes during engine assembly but I don't run anything on it. For all you guys out there with your bone stock cams in your marine engines, I wouldn't worry too much about zinc content. Many aftermarket cams run much more aggressive cam lobe ramps than stock, this is where the extra protection of a hi-zinc oil is really needed. If your older engine calls for a 40w oil, I would likely run a 25w-50 or a 30w-50 diesel oil like shell rotella t.

As for dino oil vs synthetic. Synthetic is a bit better on an engine where you have lots of cold starts and many short trips where the engine doesn't get a chance to fully warm up. On a boat, I don't think it's necessary. At 19 years old, I wouldn't even consider it. The "damage" has already been done.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sae 40

As far as ZDDP ("zinc") goes, I believe the Merc 25w40 has ~1600 ppm. If you're going to use that as the bar, you might be able to find how that compares to other oils you're considering.

Some of the benefits given for using synthetics are: extended drain intervals, better fuel economy, and reduced engine wear.

On the engine wear front, you ran 19 years - presumably on conventional - and the engine hasn't plumb wore out. Going synthetic for engine wear reduction may be helpful going forward, but that party started two decades ago. Something to think about.

As far as fuel economy goes, synthetics are also better. I just think there are a LOT of other things on a boat (that aren't the oil) that more meaningfully contribute to better fuel mileage: keeping a clean bottom, keeping the fuel delivery dialed in, driving a straight line when you're going somewhere, running mostly at an optimal RPM, etc.

For the drain intervals, I think boaters tend the change oil regularly enough (end of the season or annually) for it not to be an issue.

I did a bunch of research on oil at the start of this season and came to the conclusion that I'd have to run whatever I'm comfortable running. Ask 10 guys and you'll walk away with 11 recommended oils to run. I think that synthetics do have benefits, but consider if they are benefits you'll actually realize based on your habits.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Sae 40

Everyone just needs to remember that ALL of the above posters (internet engineers maybe?) know more than the manufacturer's do. Maybe Volvo, Merc, and GM will have their real engineers read these threads so they can learn the latest technology. Make sure you don't pay any attention to the manufacturer's latest recommendations, I doubt if Volvo or Merc have any experience or data with engine oil.

 

[Aloysius]

Re: Sae 40

Everyone just needs to remember that ALL of the above posters (internet engineers maybe?) know more than the manufacturer's do. Maybe Volvo, Merc, and GM will have their real engineers read these threads so they can learn the latest technology. Make sure you don't pay any attention to the manufacturer's latest recommendations, I doubt if Volvo or Merc have any experience or data with engine oil.

Good point. Taking the advice on engine oil for a small block Chevy from Yamaha is like taking outdrive oil advice from GM.

Oils with the starburst symbol (energy efficient or whatever) have low/no ZDDP, since it has been found to foul catalytic converters.

Bottom line, aside from wiping cam lobes from lack of zinc, engine failures from using the "wrong" oil are virtually unheard of.

 

[Bluestream]

Re: Sae 40

The reason I do mot like to switch to synthedic is that your engine was broke in on conventional. That has soaked into the metal. bearings and rings. I use synthedic on new engines and recomend it. But have heard of claims by my oil distributor of catistrophic failure on older engines. I have no hard evidence , only advice from people I trust.

Ok, just when I thought I had heard everything now this. The above statement is totally false and untrue. You can switch to a synthetic at any time without worries.

Educate yourself about motor oils here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm

 

[Bluestream]

Re: Sae 40

So is SAE 40 available in synthetic?

Yes, Amsoil

But if you want a 40W synthetic, you can use a 0W40, 5W40, 10W40, or 25W40 in its place and not worry about shear down. These would all be a better choice,.

Personally I would use a marine oil as it will have more zinc (ZDDP) than an automotive oil.