Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

[JB]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

When pigs fly, WillyB.:|

 

[PW2]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

When a covert (secret) operation becomes public knowledge the usefulness of keeping it covert is lost.

JB, You really think the terrorists were surprised to learn we want to listen in to their phone conversations?

I would have been shocked if we weren't trying, as we should, and I'm very glad they have to obtain some sort of court approval.

I've never understood the need to exclude the court, as they were allowed under the current law 72 hours or so to put together their warrant request, which would allow any manner of random sampling and data mining.

The only thing I can think is that the reason for the 180 turn is potential subpoenas issued by the new congress, with embarassing potential answers.

Speculation, I know, but what other plausible explaination is there?

 

[QC]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

I communicate Internationally almost everyday. Literally nothing has changed with how I/we do business from before 9/11 to now, except the well known (and understood by most) issues at Airports. I want my Government providing national security, I want them to be more diligent, not less. Even staunch libertarians believe that is one of the major roles of our Gov't although Skinnywater thinks the whole airport thing is a problem. I am not sure how he would have managed that situation beginning as far back as Cuban hijackers, but hey, common sense be damned. Could anyone here rationally imagine Air travel as it was in the 50s? Tough ship, get over it, there are "really bad people doing really bad stuff" that seem to think Airplanes are a great way to to hurt people. Funny how they use email and telephones and wire transfers of cash to get things done. Maybe we should assume they'll communicate via the Camel Express, but silly me I'm thinking these measures are (were) prudent. Too bad knuckleheads like those screaming about their civil rights have messed up rational responses by the sane among us . . .

Rambling rant off :|

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

PW2 Stated:
"When a covert (secret) operation becomes public knowledge the usefulness of keeping it covert is lost." JB in quotes

JB, You really think the terrorists were surprised to learn we want to listen in to their phone conversations?

I would have been shocked if we weren't trying, as we should, and I'm very glad they have to obtain some sort of court approval.

I've never understood the need to exclude the court, as they were allowed under the current law 72 hours or so to put together their warrant request, which would allow any manner of random sampling and data mining.

The only thing I can think is that the reason for the 180 turn is potential subpoenas issued by the new congress, with embarassing potential answers.

Speculation, I know, but what other plausible explaination is there?

Hey PW, Ever been to Court my friend? Lots and lots o' paperwork, by lots and lots o' Lawyers. Just think about the time envolved here PW2. Liberals love all lawyers, ('cept John O'Neal 'course: [only kiddin' PW2]). How easy would OBL, (who knows our system better then many posters on this board), to cause lots o' work for ol' GW and the boys n' girls defendin' us in all. And OBL could throw his Liberal buds a bone or two, jus' to make sure the Libs had ammo to defeat their common enemy: GWB don't ya know? Jimmy Carter, (a real live hero to Libs), set us up for failure 26-30 years back. All presidents since JC have ignored it when it was important to ignore but now THE CATS OUT OF THE BAG. The Libs will get their way, and we will be hit again some day: jus' wait 'n see., (and o' course we know to blame GW or another rehub don't we), Incompetence right: WbW?

 

[JB]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

"JB, You really think the terrorists were surprised to learn we want to listen in to their phone conversations?"

Not at all, PW2. I was only surprized that claimed loyal Americans made such a fuss about wanting to do it on notice too short to get a warrant. That's why the concept of probable cause exists.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

willieB, most of our civil liberties go unnoticed from day to day because we've never been without them. Kind of like, you don't really want your children to be able to appreciate having enough to eat every day, cause that would mean they've had to go hungry. Most people have never been wrongly accused of anything serious therefore never had need of Due Process; many therefore don't mind depriving others of it. Some people just assume that if you're accused, you must be guilty. Or if you want privacy, you must be doing something wrong. Some want to give a whole lotta power to the president, forgetting that the next president might not be one they like. Some of them are even capable of exchanging ideas in a civil manner. Others, being unable to articulate their positions, resort to personal attacks on your intellect, your integrity, and/or your loyalty. I guess that's nothing you didn't already know.

 

[crunch]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Jtex, your ideal is commendable, and in an ideal world would really work... have you noticed? this isn't all that great of an ideal world.

Yes, we should all watch to see that our freedoms aren't curtailed, but like I asked Willy, where did this infringe on any of your rights?

Do you have something to hide? Do you have conversations with terrorist organizations? Will it make or break your day if the US spy agencies "tap" your call for 5 seconds to see if you are plotting to blow up the White house?

You guys need to get a perspective on this... they don't care if your kid will be held over for soccer practice, they don't care if you have a Dental appointment, they don't care if you need to stop at the local grocery store and pick up a 1/2 rack.

Your call won't even be noticed unless you say certain key words, then it might be monitored for 30 seconds by a real person to see if it is a live one.

Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill... you guys sound like you're afraid they might publish the fact that you couldn't get it up!!!

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Even staunch libertarians believe that is one of the major roles of our Gov't although Skinnywater thinks the whole airport thing is a problem. I am not sure how he would have managed that situation beginning as far back as Cuban hijackers, but hey, common sense be damned.

I don't believe whole is anymore fair in your rant than missing my point from two weeks ago.

I'd rather not rely on the government for much at all.
For they are the ones that would avoid profileing at all costs, so yes common sense be damned.
It is the government that surely will lead the fight to make sure pilots and crew don't get the thought of arming themselves.
Pardon the conservative that would consider the idea that maybe the airlines should be responsible for thier own security.

Without so much of a debate, national or otherwise, too often, too many people like yourself take the easy way out by surrendering to big brother.
Fine for you, but pardon me for wanting to embrace what is mine, even the concept of embracing more difficult solutions.

Your attitude and willingness to practice being weak and lazy over real common sense has done more to enable the enemy more than anything else.

You talk a conservative line all the way until you expose your willingness to roll over and ridicule true American spirit.

 

[PW2]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

"JB, You really think the terrorists were surprised to learn we want to listen in to their phone conversations?"

Not at all, PW2. I was only surprized that claimed loyal Americans made such a fuss about wanting to do it on notice too short to get a warrant. That's why the concept of probable cause exists.

It is well documented, JB, why the FISA laws came into being in the first place. Nixon and his cronies were indiscriminately spying on all sorts of Americans on all sorts of issues, all in the name of national security.

To my knowledge, no American of stature, left or right, has advocated not listening to real terrorists. Many simply want as many safgeguards in place to avoid the inevitable abuses.

It is a secret court, with secret rules. The potential for abuse is great. There are potentials for problems for sure. At least there is some attempt at limiting the power of one individual. It is something. It may well not be perfect.

 

[treedancer]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Quote custombycrunch


Yes, we should all watch to see that our freedoms aren't curtailed, but like I asked Willy, where did this infringe on any of your rights?

Do you have something to hide? Do you have conversations with terrorist organizations? Will it make or break your day if the US spy agencies "tap" your call for 5 seconds to see if you are plotting to blow up the White house?

You guys need to get a perspective on this... they don't care if your kid will be held over for soccer practice, they don't care if you have a Dental appointment, they don't care if you need to stop at the local grocery store and pick up a 1/2 rack.


<< but like I asked Willy, where did this infringe on any of your rights?>>


Think future rights crunch,-- Can you guarantee this program has never — either intentionally or unintentionally — captured communications of political opponents? Especially with an attorney general like Alberto Gonzalez who stated on cspan to Sen. Specter "There is no express grant of habeas in the Constitution, there is a prohibition against taking it away"
Here it is you decide, Article I, Section 9: "The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.”

looked out the window, dont look like were in rebellion, nor have we been invaded today.All i see is a bunch of unshaven truck drivers milling about.


<<Do you have something to hide? Do you have conversations with terrorist organizations?>>

Again think future crunch,---that IRS audit that I went thru last year how do I know that they weren’t going on a tip that they got from another government agency? As a matter of fact if the IRS got a tip that they didn’t follow up on they would be in trouble with there boss.

<<You guys need to get a perspective on this...>>

Don’t know who your referring to as you guys, but if your referring to the citizenry of the United States I believe we want the government to keep their nose out of our biz. At least have a warrant before poking it in .We used to be the beacon of democracy, and supposedly showing the Middle East what Democracy is all about. Now we have this bunch of Neo-cons in the government running around and breaking the very Constitution that they were supposedly elected to protect.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Jtex, your ideal is commendable, and in an ideal world would really work... have you noticed? this isn't all that great of an ideal world.

Yes, we should all watch to see that our freedoms aren't curtailed, but like I asked Willy, where did this infringe on any of your rights?

Do you have something to hide? Do you have conversations with terrorist organizations? Will it make or break your day if the US spy agencies "tap" your call for 5 seconds to see if you are plotting to blow up the White house?

You guys need to get a perspective on this... they don't care if your kid will be held over for soccer practice, they don't care if you have a Dental appointment, they don't care if you need to stop at the local grocery store and pick up a 1/2 rack.

Your call won't even be noticed unless you say certain key words, then it might be monitored for 30 seconds by a real person to see if it is a live one.

Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill... you guys sound like you're afraid they might publish the fact that you couldn't get it up!!!

Good points all. Can't dispute any of 'em. Except the mountain out of a mole hill - matter of opinion - it's not insignificant - you say it is - both valid positions - plenty of intelligent, educated, articulate people on both sides.

Said it before I'll say it again, I don't think the president should tell us everything. The next-best thing to ideal is a president (and I mean the whole administration not just the person) who would use domestic espionage judiciously. But, this being America and not Iran, we have to have our "checks and balances". That's just a theory, I'm not completely convinced.

gotta say, I half expected somebody to go off on the use of the term "Civil Liberties" - I really am glad to see that it hasn't become a dirty word - we haven't let the ACLU ruin it for the rest of us.

"The American Civil Liberties Union, which sued the government over the program, called the Justice Department's announcement 'a quintessential flip-flop.'" - that's just the kind of thing I'm talkin bout when I say "You know how when you finally get something right and the people who've been criticizing you all along just keep criticizing instead of congratulating you? I hate it when that happens." Why does the ACLU want to set themselves up as the arch-enemies of DOJ? [that's a rhetorical question please don't try to answer]

 

[Bondo]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

"The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.”

looked out the window, dont look like were in rebellion, nor have we been invaded today.

What do you call 3 Attacks on the WTC,..??.....
How about the USS Cole,..??....
How about the Various Embassy Bombings,..??.....

Do you have something to hide? Do you have conversations with terrorist organizations?

Unless you're laundering Money thru a Terrorist Organization,.......
What's Your IRS Problems got to do with Any of this........
Unless Maybe you're using an Arab, Radical Muslim, Accountant.......

looked out the window, All i see is a bunch of unshaven truck drivers milling about.

You're a Dispatcher,..... Aren't you,..??.....

That Alone will Explain most all of your posting to Me........:%

 

[treedancer]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Quote Bond-o

What do you call 3 Attacks on the WTC,..??.....
How about the USS Cole,..??....
How about the Various Embassy Bombings,..??.....

Rebellion?………. invaded today?

Quote Bond-o

You're a Dispatcher,..... Aren't you,..??.....

That Alone will Explain most all of your posting to Me........


Come on Bond-o I’ve never got into name calling with you, this is a new low, calling me a “Dispatcher” Ooo…the horror of it , I guess next you will be calling me a …gasp terminal Manager .:%

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

This discussion is interesting, and for the most part: intellectually honest. I can see the valid points of all sides here. I also do fear a potential President H. Clinton abusing power, (as she seemed to abuse power as first lady: travel office employees et al), and has a track record, (with her husband: of dirty political tricks, IRS audits and all). I doubt Bush has abused this so far, but I can understand those who loath him feeling that way. That all said: I do want communications from the 'States' to parts abroad and incoming calls monitered. The congress must create a much more spreamlined process that involves recording and archiving the calls that are actually monitered, so that private individuals or corporations etc., (at their expense) can challange the government if they feel information from this type of call has been used improperly for an IRS matter etc. Trouble with my proposal: Democrats, (some Republicans too) will use this issue to divide and grab power. This must be done properly and not put out as a Bush bash as the Libs and Dems have effectively done thus far. My $.02 Respecfully JR

 

[tommays]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

As i understand it the OLD system was TO slow

How hard is it to hire the nessary staff to give them out in minutes 24/7 for such a cirtical thing ?


Tommays

 

[treedancer]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

In my opinion it could be done with a newer cell phone with a text message.I believe my son could do it in about a half minute. with video.:^

 

[QC]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

I'd rather not rely on the government for much at all.

Rely is a pretty interesting word, but OK I understand and tend to agree.

For they are the ones that would avoid profileing at all costs, so yes common sense be damned.

This is a separate discussion, but I believe profiling is a mistake, but not for the politically correct reason. I believe that truly bad guys will find any way around any profile.

Pardon the conservative that would consider the idea that maybe the airlines should be responsible for thier own security.

This is where I break ranks with Libertarians. I do not trust that profit as the motive will always work. I have an interesting personal experience with this issue, and although I generally believe that profit is the best motivator, it is not always honest or right . . .

It is the government that surely will lead the fight to make sure pilots and crew don't get the thought of arming themselves.

This is not really fair either in that many of our elected representatives do believe in arming pilots.

too many people like yourself take the easy way out by surrendering to big brother.

You talk a conservative line all the way until you expose your willingness to roll over and ridicule true American spirit.

I guess I touched a nerve again, and I admit my tone was kinda fight picking. I guess what I intended was to continue this discussion, as you are correct, I do not understand how you envision that this particular issue would've evolved without Government's interference. I am absolutely open to you explaining, there are just some things that seem outside of a market's ability to handle. This is one of those. It is not because I am lazy; I simply do not get it.

My personal experience had to do with emission regulations and diesel engine manufacturers ability to cheat. It is amazing what electronics allow you to do with engine controls. Anyway, how for example, would the market successfully encourage "cleaner" products when the exhaust is already invisible? Although I rail against Al Gore's "confirmation" of man's impact on Global Warming, I am not ignorant of the fact that sucking on a 30 year old diesel exhaust pipe would kill me faster than sucking on a new one . . .

 

[rottenray6402]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

We are talking terrorists that have sworn to kill us here boys, not some local drug dealers or someone trying to cheat on their taxes. How many judges have a top secret clearance to know about on going investigations into different individuals or organizations affecting our national security? I believe that the ACLU is just as dangerous as the terrorists in many cases. How many people have been killed by murders that had to be let go because of shister ACLU lawyers? We have to have covert spying operations run by people that know what they are doing. Professionals in the national security business not civilian judges or lawyers.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Sorry, ray, we're talkin bout all Americans, not just the terrorists. We want the terrorist's phones bugged.

from oldmercsrule:
I doubt Bush has abused this so far, but I can understand those who loath him feeling that way.
It's not Bush the man...it's the Bush administration. I know he's the "decider", but surely he's not personally deciding on each & every wiretap...surely that work is delegated.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

...
It is the government that surely will lead the fight to make sure pilots and crew don't get the thought of arming themselves.
Pardon the conservative that would consider the idea that maybe the airlines should be responsible for thier own security.
...

Didn't you know, pilots are packing? after some kind of certification of course.

Regarding airline security, I'm glad you asked. There's some good reasons for airlines to hand it over to TSA, I'll try to explain. It's kind of related to free enterprise, just as QC implied.

Threat assessment - someonehas to determine what level of security is required, from zero security on one hand to extreme security on the other. Only way to be 100% certain is to ground all aircraft. Next best is no carry-ons, no checked luggage, no freight, everybody strips naked and puts on a hospital gown. See what I mean? Unless each airline has their own "National Security Council" how do we know what the threat level is?

Consistency - most terminals are occupied by more than one airline - what good is it for us to have tighter security than our neighbor down the hall?

Competition - airline seats are a commodity, price is the determining factor for most travelers. Pricing is demand-based and almost completely unrelated to cost - very rarely can an airline successfully pass increased costs on to their customers. Spending more on security than the competition puts you at a cost disadvantage - inconvienence your customers more than the competition puts your product at a disadvantage. Furthermore, as noted above, you won't know whether there's any benefit to spending more on security.

Pre-911, the government assessed the risk and set standards; airlines tried to find the most economical way to meet those standards.