Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

[Skinnywater]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Regarding airline security, I'm glad you asked. There's some good reasons for airlines to hand it over to TSA, I'll try to explain. It's kind of related to free enterprise, just as QC implied.

I appreciate your efforts in the above post jtex. At least an effort in dialouge is made instead of blindly accepting the government as the only answer.
In almost all cases the arguement can be made that government (bureaucracy) is usually the worst option. The GAO substantiates this including airport security.

Privatising airport security with government oversight is more palatable to me.

I guess what I intended was to continue this discussion, as you are correct, I do not understand how you envision that this particular issue would've evolved without Government's interference. I am absolutely open to you explaining

QC, some of my personal positions are vague.
It's more the consequence of my own checks and balance here on iboats. While I'm very eager to engage in debate, I don't initiate political threads.
So that you may understand generally my position on some of those vague stances and more specifically me prefering "more difficult solutions."
For instance, I prefer isolationism to imperialism and foriegn entanglements.
I prefer family involvement, charity and community involvement over welfare and Social Security (new deal)programs.
In almost all ways that can be imagined I prefer individualism over even the slightest government involvement. Yet I don't consider myself a Libertarian at all.

I suspect this only provides you with more questions. Please, I'd be happy to answer them if you care to start a new topic...

 

[QC]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

I respect that you are willing to discuss these things Skinnywater. I guess I could start a separate thread, but I think on this topic that my general comments and jtex's specific ones outline my concerns. I will say I am VERY uncomfortable with you even vaguely asserting that I blindly follow anything. It has been the source of a couple of our headbutts. One over my support of this administration and one over my assertion that the Constitution does allow for some modifications. Even using that M word makes me uncomfortable as you have previously suggested that I consider it a "living and breathing" document although I don't hold that nor have I ever said it.

As far as your lists of general principles that you hold, we have previously discussed Isolationism, which if you recall I said that I would like to consider myself an Isolationist, but I just can't be that selfish. Also, I reject the term Imperialism in regard to the US as I have no idea what we have Imperialized since, oh I don't know, let's use American Samoa as that has been in a recent thread . . .

I agree with your depiction of charity vs. welfare, and Social Security 100%. The other place that we have gotten sideways though is that I am not clear how you would suggest that we undo all that is done. The pragmatist in me says it simply won't happen. I am happy to stop the bleeding first although back to the original topic, I am not sure how we protect our Airlines, air passengers, and economy without some pretty dramatic (and consistent) measures at our Airports.

 

[i386]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

The way I understand it is that they're supposed to take it to the FISA court first. It's my understanding that the FISA court has only denied a request 5 times in the history of the program. The president claimed powers he did not have. If he needed more power then the proper thing to do would be to use the process to change the law.

I'm all for spying on terrorists, but power is nearly always abused. It's a lot harder to undo a law than it is to create one. Maybe you trust this administration with this power. Do you trust every administration after this one with it? I don't.

 

[PW2]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

The way I understand it is that they're supposed to take it to the FISA court first. It's my understanding that the FISA court has only denied a request 5 times in the history of the program. The president claimed powers he did not have. If he needed more power then the proper thing to do would be to use the process to change the law.

I'm all for spying on terrorists, but power is nearly always abused. It's a lot harder to undo a law than it is to create one. Maybe you trust this administration with this power. Do you trust every administration after this one with it? I don't.

They have a certain amount of time (72 hours?) from suspicion to obtain a warrant. Their rules are somewhat secret, and that may vary depending on circumstance.

Everyone wants to identify potential terrorists, and terrorist activity, even I suspect, the ACLU. What we want to avoid is this being used for purely political reasons (spying on your political enemies) as has been done in the past, and was the reason the FISA court was established in the first place.

It was established in the early 70's, and it may well be cumbersome and outdated with today's technology. I don't know. That may well be a reason to re-do, streamline, and modernize the rules. It ought not to be a reason to simply ignore them.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Very Good again: Gentlemen. I can agree with most of your well thought out statements and concerns. That said: the FISA court is far too slow, and cumbersome for the post internet, (email out of public libraries and disposable cell phone) world. Jimmy Carter loved it in the late 70s, (but Jimmy seems to love the self distruction of our country where ever he can arrange it). I am fairly sure we would either be speaking Russian or dead had he not gotten crushed by R Reagan. I agree with jtex that GW Bush is not doing the actual oversite work, and the bureaucracy has always had enemies within. A Hiss et al comes to mind, and the leakers to the NYTimes in modern times sure doesn't seem to give a carp about our country. Honest statesmen and women, (if such people still exist in this very partisn world we now live in), must craft a program that records the bureaucrats' survelience actions when they are peekin' and provides a review at the citizen's expence, (that is so OBL and his ally: the ACLU can't kill us with lawyers). If there is abuse proven, (it would have to be after the fact do to speed considerations again), then the penalties for abuse must be very VERY HARD. My $.02. JR

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

The other place that we have gotten sideways though is that I am not clear how you would suggest that we undo all that is done.

For realistic and practical purposes QC my intention here is to reject sliding further away from American principals.

History has shown that national crisis and hardships have been the perfect tool to enable government to present a "new deal." That "new deal" preys and promotes human weaknesses, results in permanent net power gains for our government.

This is a lesson how that transpires. Right here on this forum are beautiful examples of self professed conservatives argueing for the need of larger government and modifying the Constitution.

Even armed with the fact that numerous measures have been employed by this administration to "protect" us have been brought before the Supreme Court and were struck down.
Wire tapping on its own, or random searching on its own might make me uncomfortable. However, proven examples of incompetence, the above mentioned examples of conflicts with the Constitution, and many less "bumps" up against it in the fine print has me very, very alarmed.
Even more so when you experience what now seems to be fair weather conservatives vehemently embracing those measures, all of those measures, even those that were struck down by the court.
That leads me to question, how much further or incremental does it need to go before an American wakes up to be a.....European?

Sorry QC, I missed what you meant by the "M" word but I have witnessed what seems to be blatant blind following here.

Still, probably lost in translation we still certainly are closer allies than not QC.

They have a certain amount of time (72 hours?) from suspicion to obtain a warrant. Their rules are somewhat secret, and that may vary depending on circumstance.

Everyone wants to identify potential terrorists, and terrorist activity, even I suspect, the ACLU. What we want to avoid is this being used for purely political reasons (spying on your political enemies) as has been done in the past, and was the reason the FISA court was established in the first place.

It was established in the early 70's, and it may well be cumbersome and outdated with today's technology. I don't know. That may well be a reason to re-do, streamline, and modernize the rules. It ought not to be a reason to simply ignore them.

Very well put PW.....except for the ACLU part.

 

[QC]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Sorry QC, I missed what you meant by the "M" word but I have witnessed what seems to be blatant blind following here.

M word = modification. The only point I was trying to make with the M word comment is that I do not know what word to use to describe the Constitution's amendable nature and not sound like I am calling it "a living breathing document" . . . 8) Like you said, we are closer rather than farther, our biggest problem may simply be that we are both passionate.

 

[Plainsman]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Seems to me your dem buddies in Congress just said (voted) that this ok, plus some. Gotta love the party of sound bites, flip flopping and no substance.

You should be proud willy!!

 

[RubberFrog]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

This will all be explained away...

 

[Plainsman]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

This will all be explained away...

Yep.

Or ignored, as is their preference when they don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[mikeandronda]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Is this I voted against it before I voted for it............Or I voted for it before I voted against it........AHHHHH just more of the same from those wacky fun loving Libs on the left..........RF it wont be explained away it will be ignored and the subject will change 3-4 times.........Bush lied Babies Died..........Cheney is the devil......bla bla bla.........I think them( The Left) winning the last elections was the best thing that could of happened. We can get a picture what it would be like with one of them as a Prez :0 ...its almost fun if it wasnt so scary to think these fools have any say over anything.....

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Most of the Dems voted against, but there were enough sniveling cowards that caved-in like a quicksand mine.

Their tenure is doubtful come next time around. Giving Gonzo sayso. Wutta buncha buffoons.

 

[jimyoung]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Google "codename Echelon" read it close....then Google " signicant terrorist incidents" have a good read.........

 

[treedancer]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Quote Plainsman

Seems to me your dem buddies in Congress just said (voted) that this ok, plus some. Gotta love the party of sound bites, flip flopping and no substance.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll836.xml

Hhmm?flip flopping, ?.of course if they had voted it down you would have been part of the chorus on here saying ?..Drum roll please?. Typical Libs don?t support our country, or the troops. In Plainmans eyes this was win,win.


Here have a look at what you, and the other Lemmings, have gleefully endorsed, as you can see im not to proud of it. The link shows the yeas,and neas, I,m proud to say my congressman ,Russ Carnahan ,was one of the neas.


If the Carrnahan name sounds familiar it is because he is the son of our late Governor Mel Carnahan, who died in a plane crash when he was campaigning for Senator Ashcrofts seat in the Senate.Yes the time Ashcroft got beat in the election against a dead man.

Here, have a look at what one more step in the march towards twenty first century fascism looks like. No frog I wont explain it away, it pretty well sucks regardless who voted for it.


<<The law:

• Defines the act of reading and listening into American's phone calls and internet communications when they are "reasonably believed" to be outside the country as not surveillance.
• Gives the government 6 months of extended powers to issue orders to "communication service providers," to help with spying that "concerns persons reasonably believed to be outside the United States." The language doesn't require the surveillance to only target people outside the United States, only that some of it does.
• Forces Communication Service providers to comply secretly, though they can challenge the orders to the secret Foreign Intelligence Court. Individuals or companies given such orders will be paid for their cooperation and can not be sued for complying.
• Makes any program or orders launched in the next six months last for a year after being authorized
• Grandfathers in the the current secret surveillance program -- sometimes referred to as the Terrorist Surveillance Program -- and any others that have been blessed by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
• Requires the Attorney General to submit to the secret surveillance court its reasons why these programs aren't considered domestic spying programs, but the court can only throw out those reasons if it finds that they are "clearly erroneous."
• Requires the Attorney General to tell Congress twice a year about any incidents of surveillance abuse and give statistics about how many surveillance programs were started and how many directives were issued.(I guess he will be glad to go in front of congress and say Idon't recall again)
• Makes no mention of the Inspector General, who uncovered abuses of the Patriot Act by the FBI after being ordered by Congress to audit the use of powerful self-issued subpoenas, is not mentioned in the bill.>>

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Can you imagine if the Brits at Blechley Park had to submit to this garbage everytime they tried to decode an enigma transmission or when the military was bugging the phone lines into London from Berlin?

Anyone worried we trampled Hitlers rights? Or his communications outside of Germany? How about our subs tapping into undersea phone cables coming out of Russia in their waters? What a bunch of crap.....

Are you aware that calls from Pakistan to Saudi Arabia are frequently run thru the USA network right here on our soil? Or from Iran to Somolia? Or from almost anywhere in the world? Heaven forbid we hear about the greatness of allah without a warrant.

One cup - line forms to the left - I hear the Wild Berry is great today......

 

[Plainsman]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Quote Plainsman

Seems to me your dem buddies in Congress just said (voted) that this ok, plus some. Gotta love the party of sound bites, flip flopping and no substance.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll836.xml

Hhmm?flip flopping, ?.of course if they had voted it down you would have been part of the chorus on here saying ?..Drum roll please?. Typical Libs don?t support our country, or the troops. In Plainmans eyes this was win,win.


Here have a look at what you, and the other Lemmings, have gleefully endorsed, as you can see im not to proud of it. The link shows the yeas,and neas, I,m proud to say my congressman ,Russ Carnahan ,was one of the neas.


If the Carrnahan name sounds familiar it is because he is the son of our late Governor Mel Carnahan, who died in a plane crash when he was campaigning for Senator Ashcrofts seat in the Senate.Yes the time Ashcroft got beat in the election against a dead man.

Here, have a look at what one more step in the march towards twenty first century fascism looks like. No frog I wont explain it away, it pretty well sucks regardless who voted for it.


<<The law:

• Defines the act of reading and listening into American's phone calls and internet communications when they are "reasonably believed" to be outside the country as not surveillance.
• Gives the government 6 months of extended powers to issue orders to "communication service providers," to help with spying that "concerns persons reasonably believed to be outside the United States." The language doesn't require the surveillance to only target people outside the United States, only that some of it does.
• Forces Communication Service providers to comply secretly, though they can challenge the orders to the secret Foreign Intelligence Court. Individuals or companies given such orders will be paid for their cooperation and can not be sued for complying.
• Makes any program or orders launched in the next six months last for a year after being authorized
• Grandfathers in the the current secret surveillance program -- sometimes referred to as the Terrorist Surveillance Program -- and any others that have been blessed by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
• Requires the Attorney General to submit to the secret surveillance court its reasons why these programs aren't considered domestic spying programs, but the court can only throw out those reasons if it finds that they are "clearly erroneous."
• Requires the Attorney General to tell Congress twice a year about any incidents of surveillance abuse and give statistics about how many surveillance programs were started and how many directives were issued.(I guess he will be glad to go in front of congress and say Idon't recall again)
• Makes no mention of the Inspector General, who uncovered abuses of the Patriot Act by the FBI after being ordered by Congress to audit the use of powerful self-issued subpoenas, is not mentioned in the bill.>>

Yes it was. And it was the correct thing to do.
Why do you oppose this so much Don? And please don't say "read my last post". I did and I don't see a problem there.

 

[treedancer]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Quote Plainsman


Why do you oppose this so much Don? And please don't say "read my last post". I did and I don't see a problem there



Abuses of the outposts will be monitored only by the Justice Department, which has already been found to have underreported abuses of other surveillance powers to Congress. Of course you think this justice department is AOK?.right .

I don?t think I,m the only one that don?t trust this administration, or the justice department run by Gonzales . How about this scenario, it isn?t to far fetched ti imagine under this administration .They can redirect any and all traffic through Langley , and have it fall under this law by any bogus means they could make up. How about two people chatting on I-boats ? (in America) route the communication via Uzbekistan and it becomes 'foreign' communication from a known terrorist affiliated state. Hello Hal, the future is now.


Man this is scary.

< ?The law gives the Administration the power to order the nation's communication service providers -- which range from Gmail, AOL IM, Twitter, Skype, traditional phone companies, ISPs, internet backbone providers, Federal Express, and social networks -- to create possibly permanent spying outposts for the federal government.?>>

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bills&docid=f:s1927es.txt.pdf

 

[Plainsman]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Quote Plainsman


Why do you oppose this so much Don? And please don't say "read my last post". I did and I don't see a problem there



Abuses of the outposts will be monitored only by the Justice Department, which has already been found to have underreported abuses of other surveillance powers to Congress. Of course you think this justice department is AOK?.right .

I don?t think I,m the only one that don?t trust this administration, or the justice department run by Gonzales . How about this scenario, it isn?t to far fetched ti imagine under this administration .They can redirect any and all traffic through Langley , and have it fall under this law by any bogus means they could make up. How about two people chatting on I-boats ? (in America) route the communication via Uzbekistan and it becomes 'foreign' communication from a known terrorist affiliated state. Hello Hal, the future is now.


Man this is scary.

< ?The law gives the Administration the power to order the nation's communication service providers -- which range from Gmail, AOL IM, Twitter, Skype, traditional phone companies, ISPs, internet backbone providers, Federal Express, and social networks -- to create possibly permanent spying outposts for the federal government.?>>

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bills&docid=f:s1927es.txt.pdf

And suppose Martians land and take over the world..... (sorry spinner )
Looks like your living in a world of hypothetical's and paranoia.

 

[JB]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

Anybody got a better idea of how to discover what suspected terrorists are up to?

Do you think they have any rules about how they can't do something that furthers their cause?

Frankly, I stand by what I posted months ago: If it is reasonably determined that a crime or a conspiracy to commit crime may be in progress no warrant is required to investigate. That is called probable cause and it is legal, though subject to review after the fact.

I stand by the right to privacy of American citizens acting within the law. I do not believe that non-citizens that meet a hostile profile or persons hostile to US interests in other parts of the world are entitled to that right.

As for this nonsense about me flip-flopping, it is hogwash. My positions do not change and I do not dance to the tune of any sheeplike party hack or platform.

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Score One for a Return of Civil Rights

But JB...what if a known enemy of the state (Wanted: Dead or Alive) with the initials J and B (standing for something painfully long) is commonly known simply by his codename "JB"?

What if you are talking to a friend on the phone that wants to bring over a twelve-pack and asks "What kind of beer do you drink?" You say "I don't care, but I hate Busch!"

Then you say "My neighbor Al Kida is here. Maybe we can all get bombed together."