shifting into reverse affected by postion of prop

cdp

Recruit
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Dec 17, 2003
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2
I have an 1990 model 8hp Evinrude that won't shift into reverse when the prop in in a certain position. Move the prop a fraction of an inch and it slips right in. Is this a problem and can anybody offer any help?
 

walleyehed

Admiral
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Jun 29, 2003
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6,767
Re: shifting into reverse affected by postion of prop

Thats normal, and if you shift for any reason out of the water...maintenance etc...it's good practice to turn prop while shifting so you don't stress components trying to shift.<br />With the engine running, the drive shaft is turning all of the time and does basically the same thing as turning the prop to ease shifting.<br />I assume you're talking about non-running aren't you???
 

cdp

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Dec 17, 2003
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2
Re: shifting into reverse affected by postion of prop

Thanks!!! Was beginning to think I'd gotten ripped off! You're right,I meant when it wasn't running. Appreciate the help!
 

walleyehed

Admiral
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Jun 29, 2003
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Re: shifting into reverse affected by postion of prop

No prob., and welcome aboard! :)
 

Joe Reeves

Supreme Mariner
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Feb 24, 2002
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Re: shifting into reverse affected by postion of prop

CDP.... You may find the following of some interest.<br /><br />This pertains to lower units on all OMC manual shift outboard engines, or any OMC engine with lower units defined as a Shift Assist or a Hydro Electric Shift unit which incorporates a "Shifter Clutch Dog".<br /> <br />Within the lower unit, splined to the prop shaft is what is most often referred to as a clutch dog, hereafter simply called dog. The dog has at least two lobes protruding from it on both ends, facing both forward and reverse gear. The forward and reverse gears also have lobes built into them near their center area. When the engine is running, in neutral, the gears are spinning constantly via the driveshaft being connected directly to the powerhead crankshaft, but the propeller does not turn due to the fact that the dog is centered between the two gears, and the dog lobes are not touching either of the gear lobes.<br /> <br />When the unit is put into either gear, shift linkages force the dog (and its lobes of course) to engage the lobes of the the gear. The lobes of the spinning gear grab the lobes of the dog, and since the dog is splined to the prop shaft, the propeller turns.<br /><br />The lobes of the dog and gears are percisely machined, most with right angled edges that could be installed in either direction, and some with angles slightly varied that must be installed in one direction only (one end only must face the propeller). Dogs that can be installed in one direction only, if reversed, even if the dog and both gears were new.... would jump out of gear almost immediately. Keep in mind that the lobes are percisely machined with sharp angles!<br /> <br />Due to improper adjustment or worn shift linkages, but usually due to improper slow shifting, those percisely machined sharp edges of the lobes become slightly rounded. Now, with those lobes rounded, as the rpms increase, the pressure of the gear lobes upon the dog lobes increases to a point whereas they are forced apart (jumping out of gear), and due (usually) to the shift cable keeping tension on the engines shift linkages..... the unit is forced back into gear giving one the sensation that the engine has hit something, and the cycle continues.<br /> <br />Some boaters have the mistaken belief that shifting slowly is taking it easy on all of the shifting components..... Wrong! Shifting slowly allows those percisely machined sharp edges of the dog and gears to click, clank, bang, slam against each other many times before they are finally forced into alignment with each other..... and this is what rounds those edges off! The proper way to shift is to snap the unit into gear as quickly as possible.<br /><br />- - - - - <br /><br />The following should explain the proper procedure for shifting into gear when the engine IS NOT running.<br /><br />Pertaining to the manual shift models, when shifting into gear with the engine NOT RUNNING, the prop must be spun so as not to possibly have the dog and gear lobes run directly into each other.<br /><br />To grasp this scenario, with your left hand form a "C" with your thumb and forefinger. Now, with your right hand, form a backwards "C" with your thumb and forefinger. Your fingers will represent the dog and gear lobes.<br /><br />Slide the finger and thumb of your right hand alongside the thumb and finger of your left hand so that they overlap. This is the position of the dog and gear lobes when properly in gear.<br /><br />Seperate that position, then butt the tips of the finger and thumb of your right hand up against the finger and thumb tips of your left hand. This represents having the gear and dog lobes directly facing each other. Should you atempt to force the engine into gear with this condition existing, damage to the shift mechanism will surely ocurr.
 

Mark42

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
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9,334
Re: shifting into reverse affected by postion of prop

Why don't they have a synchro in the mechanism like car transmissions do? (a synchro brings the "dog" and gear to the same speed during engagement and prevents the "stripping" gear sound and clunks and crunches) That would save the crunch, bang and wear that occurrs with the simple dog ingagement system. The dog style is what most lawn and garden tractors use in their transmissions and they work fine, but they also have a clutch to prevent the parts from moving while engaging.<br /><br />If broken and worn gears are such a common problem, I would think that a simple synchro would become standard.<br /><br />Do you think it is just a cost cutting measure to leave out the synchro?
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: shifting into reverse affected by postion of prop

Mark,<br /><br />Synchros are for changing gears rotating in the same direction. There are no synchros for shifting from forward to reverse in any gearcase.<br /><br />Worn and broken gears are not common place as the same gear shifting system has been used on outboards since the late 1940's and early '50's.<br /><br />Joe did a great job describing the gear shift operation, don't you think?
 

Mark42

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Oct 8, 2003
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Re: shifting into reverse affected by postion of prop

Seahorse,<br /><br />Yes, Joe did a great job of describing the mechanism. <br /><br />Regarding the use of synchros: a synchro can be used anywhere the manufacturer chooses to put one. All transmissions have a synchro from neutral to first, and some have them on reverse. The gear case on an outboard could easily contain synchros on both gears. A synchro does not care about what gear change you are making. It just makes the gear spin the same speed as the shaft it is on during engagement. It is nothing more than a clutch built into every gear. My guess is that they leave them off to save a few bucks.<br /><br />Try this if you have a manual trans: Put the trans in reverse, back up at low speed, then clutch and shift into first. No grind, no clunk. That is the synchro working from neutral to first. It's nice, no? Now put the trans in neutral and with the clutch out, rev up the engine. Now clutch and shift to reverse. If you don't hear a crunch or grind, you have a synchro on reverse too. Pretty slick, isn't it?<br /> <br />Wouldn't you pay a few dollars more for silky smooth shifts like that in your boat?<br /><br />Mark.
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: shifting into reverse affected by postion of prop

Nah, an efficient torque converter, with a few forward gears, computer controlled of course, would be the smoothest shift system. It would only add a few inches, a few pounds, and a few dollars for enhanced operation. right?<br /><br />Wouldn't you pay a few dollars more for silky smooth shifts?
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: shifting into reverse affected by postion of prop

seahorse,<br /><br />You hit ALL the outboard no no's.<br /><br />Pounds<br /><br />Inches<br /><br />Cost
 

Joe Reeves

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Feb 24, 2002
Messages
13,262
Re: shifting into reverse affected by postion of prop

The synchro setup does exist, however to my knowledge it is used only on the inboard engine versions, and its size, reduced as much as possible, would be excessive pertaining to use on any outboard.<br /><br />If it were possible to miniaturize the synchronized transmission for outboard use, I would think that many of the moving components would be reduced to a size whereas it would be impossible for them to absorb the forces exerted upon them.<br /><br />If it could be done, I'm sure it would have been done a long time ago. However, it would be my guess that very few would be able to afford that setup..... or the repairs associated with it.<br /><br />Bottom line.... We must live with what we have, and now you know why that thing is called a dog (grin).
 
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