Short shaft Alpha One question

[natemoore]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

There are 3 parts to forming an oil seal.
1. the oil itself... a seal needs oil behind it to cool the seal or else the rubber burns and the spring starts to poke through, which is what happened to you. You ran low on oil.
2. The oil seal
3. the machined surface that the seal rides on, and yours is bad.

If 1 of the 3 are off you no longer have a good oil seal.

1. Got oil.

2. Got a new seal.

3. Got a nice, shiny machined surface for the seal to ride on.

If you are unable to elaborate on a valid technical reason why the seal will leak, let's stop this ***-for-tat.

In the real world (as he continued with the ***-for-tat), mechanics don't have to pay for the parts they insist should be replaced, and owners seldom have any technical knowledge to challenge anything a mechanic says.

If I had a mechanic, and he was unable to give me a reason for replacing a part or performing a service other than "because I say so," or " I dunno, I just have a feeling," then I'd find another mechanic.

Then as I walked away quite unconvinced, I'd hear him yelling, "you're gonna be sorry, see you next week, pay me now or pay me later!"

Seriously, I'm not asking you to answer the question "who created the creator?" The only thing I can think of that your gut may be telling you is that the dust lip is in/near that groove (which was caused by the old dust lip, not the oil lip), and you're thinking that the dust lip must also have a perfect machined surface to ride on for the seal to work. Or you think the position on the shaft where the oil lip will be riding is one of life's unknowable mysteries. If either one of these is the case, I am very comfortable proceeding using the old shaft.

Yeah, I know...see ya in a week.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

$80 shaft would be purchased if it were me. Or at least a stainless speedi sleeve for $25.

Sometimes you can shim the seal to ride in a different spot. but for $80 who could be bothered. not even a tank of gas.

I hear you, but this engine/transom/sterndrive rebuild project is like death by a thousand cuts.....a thousand $80 cuts. If I don't absolutely have to replace a part, I won't (unless it is a $10 part that takes two days worth of labor to get to).

I guess I'd turn my underwear inside out before I'd buy a new pair.

 

[Don S]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

Then don't replace it............... It's your drive.
But when the gear lube leaks into the bellows next summer and you don't know it and your upper gears go out. Then you see if that $80 part is worth not installing.
If you had a gear lube reservoir, it would be worth a shot at running it, the reservoir would keep the drive full of oil, and you could see the level drop if it leaks. But you don't have one. So you have to wait for gear failure to tell you the oil is leaking.
You've been given all kinds of options. But it all comes down to you having to make the choice on your own.

You can't reposition the seal, it just fits the carrier. There is only 1 seal, not a dust seal and an oil seal

 

[ziggy]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

nate, i don't understand why yer balking at replacing the part. so ya save 80 bucks. everyone here has no reason to help other than they like boats. there's no reward in it. some folks is mechs, some aint. i fall into the later. but i do read what everyone has to say. some folks i weight my decision on more so than others as far as comments go. people that've done it and mechs are the ones i listen to most, but i read and listen to all comments. i also use common sense. you know a new part don't have the groove. why are you taking the chance of the leak? do you enjoy setting rolling torque or the labor that goes into going to get that piece? wouldn't ya rather be boating?
myself, as a non mech. i've got a lot going against every repair i do. my own ineptness. why not just replace it, then you've given yourself the best chance for a good repair. also. if you read your service manual, it talks about cleaning and inspection. for my drive. a 1 drive it states. "inspect shaft (between yoke and splines) on gear end of universal joint for groove where oil seal reides. if shaft is grooved, install NEW oil seal and NEW yoke on universal joint" that's from mercruiser. i know i don't know more than mercruiser so when i read something like that, i must assume they have a reason for stating that. i'm not the one who capped NEW oil seal an NEW yoke either. that's the way its printed in the s/m. they must have a reason. who am i to second guess the mfg..

i wish you luck in your repair. but i just don't get why your hesitating. you know what the right thing to do is. go read the s/m on your rig. bet it'll say the same thing. do you disagree with mercruiser?

but this engine/transom/sterndrive rebuild project is like death by a thousand cuts.....a thousand $80 cuts.

i hear ya, but did you expect anything else. it is a boat ya know. ya know, like in break out another thousand..

If I don't absolutely have to replace a part, I won't

but you do in this case. your part is none serviceable per mercrusier... it has a groove and that's cause for replacement..

 

[JustJason]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

Go for it then man....

Just looked at a boat this morning... complaint was engine oil in the bilge.

Turned out actually be gear oil in the bilge.

Boats comming out of the water tommorow so I can take the drive off and look at it. Once I pop the top, if the gears and bearings are rust free its getting a input shaft seal and 9 times out of 10 on this job... a yoke.

If the gears and bearings are rusty... its getting an SEI drive.

 

[Apollo75]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

Be a Scotty --- he never let the Enterprise down

"I can't do it Captain, I just don't have the part"

I looked at the exploded view and I don't think the seal rides there anyway. Even if it does the new seal will seal it --- the new seal has a lip with a smaller cross section than the old seal lip that was worn and made the little polished area / grove. A little pressure will just make the new seal lip press harder and seal better.

How much dust is back there in a boat ? --- If you vaporize a coupler you need to change the seal with the coupler anyway to be safe


"Warp speed Scotty"

"Eye, eye, Captain"

OFM

___________________________________
"If the boat is not sinking or on fire ---- Relax."

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

I don?t understand why you wouldn?t want to replace a worn part. Sure it still works, but you know that it?s not correct. Why change an impeller if it still works? Why replace a belt if it?s still intact? Due diligence on a boat is different than a car.

 

[wca_tim]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

what's the big deal! we've all probably half-azzed stuff back together or done things that other people didn't agree with. It's the guys right to put his stuff back together any way he likes (even if he is wrong... poke, poke... )

 

[Apollo75]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

How many lips does that seal have Mechanics ?

So, just where does the outer lip ride and where does the inner lip ride ?

Do they look like this ?

http://www.sterndrive.info/alpha-one-generation-ii/yoke_oil_seal.html

OFM

________________________________________________
"If the boat is not sinking or on fire ---- Relax."

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

what's the big deal! we've all probably half-azzed stuff back together or done things that other people didn't agree with. It's the guys right to put his stuff back together any way he likes (even if he is wrong... poke, poke... )

Yep, I have been guilty of that in the past. I have also been towed back to the marina. Live and learn is my motto.
Go for it, put it back together. Sometimes the hard way is the only way we learn.

 

[Apollo75]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

I don't know where some of you get the gall to post --- if you knew about seals you know whether that seal will leak or not ---- the inner seal seals from the inside the outer seals from the outside. If there were two groves in that shaft I would say no don't use it --- if that grove is the inner sealing surface where does the outside seal ride on the u-joint ?

I wouldn't want some of you working on my boat ---

By the way, I don't get towed back ----> I am the nice guy who does the towing

Try reading a book or going to class

OFM

 

[Maclin]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

Nate, I am not sure why you even asked now.

If it was bugging you enough to ask then stands to reason that you wanted to know more about it. The arguing part is what I do not understand, if you already knew all about it then why post unless you have some doubt or just want to show out some. The groove indicates abnormal wear. You have it apart now. So, come on, you know you really want a shiny new part, and you are going to get dirty again anyway so let don't let ego override intellect and end up putting the worn part back on.

 

[Apollo75]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

There is nothing abnormal about that wear --- the outer seal gets a little dirty and wears the shaft a little from abrasion. The inner seal is lubed and usually presents as little wear.


OFM

 

[Maclin]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

I just felt like arguing today. And I like shiny new parts that other people have to buy

 

[guyaverage]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

Nate-

The shaft in my boat has looked like that going on 5 YEARS now, and I dont not get lube oil in my u-joint bellows. I know this, because I remove my drive every fall and store it indoors, and every spring I disassemble it, clean it, check the seals and shaft surfaces, grease the u-joints, put in a new impeller, and reassemble. I also inspect the bellows, gimbal bearing, and shift cable.

The seal I am using in this application is double lipped. Both seal lips are spring loaded, and both act as fluid seals. Unfortunately on this shaft the front lip does not get lubed so it will pick up wear metal from the shaft, which in turn will imbed in the rubber of the seal and machine a groove in the shaft, just as others have pointed out.

If I were using a single-lipped seal, and the lip was riding in the groove, then I would replace the seal and the shaft and investigate for a dirty-oil or low-oil condition, or for rust/dust/dirt in the u-joint area.

You have several options, among them to use double lipped seals, or you could use a stock single-lip seal as long as the lip does not ride in the existing groove. Since you have verified the oil sealing lip does not ride on the groove and is on smooth metal, then there is NO REASON to get a new shaft.

New shaft, with new oil seal riding on smooth metal = no problem

Old shaft with groove, with oil seal lip visually verified to be riding on smooth metal = no problem

Seriously, what's the difference......? Other than Nates wallet $80 lighter? There is none. Read it and barf, people.

I would, however, heed Don S's caveat regarding a remote oil reservoir. Get one and install it. That advice would stand regardless of the content of the rest of this thread.

 

[Apollo75]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

GUYAVERAGE --- Excellent

I have not seen a single lip external seal in many years nor would I ever use one OEM or not. The extra outer seal protects from the elements and greatly extends the inner seal life by protecting the inner seal from foreign abrasive material.

OFM

___________________________________
"If the boat is not sinking or on fire ---- Relax."

 

[Bt Doctur]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

"Do You Feel Lucky???????"
IF the new seal is somehow damaged when put into service, you will lose drive oil into the bellows and LOSE the drive from lack of oil. the yoke is like $70.00 . As long as you have it apart, replace it for peace of mind.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

Let me address the last several comments.

You can reposition the seal. As you can see from the pictures, the seal is not as deep (longitudinally) as the carrier by about 2 or 3 mm. So, you could offset the new seal inside the wear groove. In my case, it doesn't matter because the old oil seal didn't have a dust lip and is offset from the wear groove anyway.

With regard to the seals in my engine/stern drive, they come in two flavors: those without dust lips, e.g., front and rear main bearing seal, and those with dust lips, e.g., camshaft seals. The part of the seal that actually does the sealing is what I've been calling the oil lip (with the garter spring). The spring, along with hydrostatic pressure, keeps the lip tight against the shaft. The dust lip does not form a seal and is there only to help keep dirt away from the oil lip.

As you can see from the pictures of the shaft, I applied black permanent marker to the shaft, assembled the components, and spun the shaft. This left marks such that I could verify where the oil and dust lips will be riding. The picture shows that the new seal is riding on the good part of the shaft and the dust seal (which is a bonus over what I had originally if you haven't realized it yet) is on the bad area. One thing to point out here: if the dust lip wears more quickly than it would if it were on a brand new shaft or a speed-sleeve, it won't really matter because I'd just be reverting to what was in the drive for the past 22 years: a seal without a dust lip.

Others urge me to replace it for "piece of mind." Others imply that I should not make the boating gods angry because my lack of superstition and supplication. I could spend the $80 as an appeasement offering, sure. However, luck has nothing to do with my reluctance to replace the shaft. I don't normally reach into my wallet and throw money out my truck window.

I certainly know it won't explode in a cloud of grease and gear fragments the first time I take it out like some have been warning.

I'm making a sound, reasoned decision.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

Replacing worn parts does not really seem like "throwing money out the trucks window".
What a useless thread.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Short shaft Alpha One question

Replacing worn parts does not really seem like "throwing money out the trucks window".
What a useless thread.

Not really. I had a little doubt at the start of the thread, but after some (I hope) civil debate and careful consideration on my part, I saved myself $80 and saw the superstitious side of boat repair in the process.

I am glad a couple of people saw my logic, though. I was beginning to doubt my communication skills.