Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

[Joe Kurland]

Hello everyone. My name is Joe, and I have just bought my second Snipe class sailboat (15'6"). I bought my first one in 1963 and sold it in 1973 when I moved too far away to bring it with me. My new Snipe was sitting deteriorating in a friends driveway when I discovered it and she was happy to sell it for a good price because it needs some serious repair work. Also, she had bought a Lightning.

The boat has a fiberglass hull which is in excellent condition. The decking is plywood. In some places, the varnish is peeling, there are spots where the top layer of lamination is broken off, and especially along the starboard side, the edge of the deck has warped and popped up away from where it should be attached to the ribs at the gunwales.

I'll try to upload some pictures of the damage.

I'm not sure if I can re-attach the plywood or if I need to replace it with new panels. In any case, I think that rather than varnish the wood, I should cover it with fiberglass as a more permanent solution. To do that, I'm guessing I'll need to remove the gunwales so that the fiberglass can lap over the edge of the hull for a waterproof joint, and then replace the gunwales. I don't know whether it will be possible to re-use the gunwales, or whether I'll need to replace them.

I just discovered this forum while searching for information on boat repair and am impressed with how generous this community is with time and advice. I'm fairly handy, but new to this kind of project, so I'll be taking it slowly and will probably be back with more questions as the summer progresses.

I'm not sure how to get full size pictures into the text below, but when I previewed the post, I could get full size pictures by clicking on the thumbnails.

The first picture shows the foredeck with some peeling varnish.

The second picture shows the port deck where some of the plywood is de-laminating.

This is the starboard deck which has become detached at the edge.

And this is a close-up view of the starboard deck.


Thanks in advance.

Joe

 

[BWT]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

I love these boats when they are in "proper" condition; absolutely beautiful.. As I am sure you already know, you'll want to remove the entire deck and inspect all of the underlying supports/framework (replace as necessary). The gunwales/rub rail might as well be replaced with new. You may be able to remove it in once piece, but I suspect that it will crack as there are a few spots that look dry rotted. IMO, it's an easy thing to fab, as long as you can get your hands on a nice board of mahogany and have access to a table saw. As far as glass or no glass over the deck, personally I would tend to NOT use it here (hull and deck need to flex and twist). Rather, I would use a marine grade ply/mahogany veneer and seal the tops, bottoms and edges with a clear epoxy (West system 105 & 207 hardener); finish off the tops with a couple coats of a good spar varnish (epifanes or pettit) AFTER they have been permanently mounted.. The link in my signature will take you to a video that outlines the use of epoxy and varnish for finishing.

When mounting the panels, use 5200 (this is one of the few times that I would recommend this compound) on top of the framework and screw panels in place; cover each screw hole with a plug or bung (same thing). throw a dab of clear epoxy over each bung, sand flush then do the varnish coats to finish. Make sure to use a bedding compound for every deck fitting (3M 4200) and stainless screws. Like you mentioned, as you get going there will be other Q's, but hopefully this has answered a few to get you started... Good luck! Looking forward to the progress.

 

[ingalp01]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed



looks like a fun project. You will find this is an unlimited source for good advice and endless support. Sometimes the right advice may not come right away, but it will come, or you will stumble across what you need by searching and reading various resto threads...

I too am learning and working on my project. I don't know how much help I'll be, but if I can offer advice I will and at the very least I'll offer up an "Atta boy" now and again as your progress on your project.

Good luck...

 

[Joe Kurland]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

Thanks BWT, I watched the video tutorials you sent me to and appreciate how informative and throrough they are. My first task is to clear out my shed so I'll have a place to keep the boat out of the rain. Today I'm letting it dry out in the sun after sitting with holey covers for several years and a week of rain since I brought it home.

Before I start with epoxy and varnish, though, I'll need to learn how to fabricate and install the new plywood decks. I watched part one of your video on teak deck installation, but I don't think that applies here. Though that rubber caulking compound looks impressive. I'll have to find a source for marine plywood and epoxy in Western Massachusetts. I'll have to find out what is the best choice in plywood types to balance cost and quality. Do you have or know of video tutorials on that part of the job?

I'd like to hear more about the choice to fiberglass or not. What will make the most durable solution? My first snipe was fiberglass over wood and it was a pleasure to sail.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

Are you going to keep the wood "Natural" or Paint her?

 

[Joe Kurland]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

Are you going to keep the wood "Natural" or Paint her?

I haven't decided yet. At this point I'm just gathering information and clearing out the storage space.

Of course I love the look of natural wood, but I'd rather be sailing than spending the next few years doing a perfect restoration. I'm afraid that if it gets too complicated it will never get done.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

Well, IF you are not going to keep her Natural you can use Ext. Grade Ply wood. If you coat it with epoxy and Paint it it will last for YEARS! The glue used in Ext. grade is 100% waterproof and is used in boat repairs all the time. I'm not a Sail boat guy but can't see why it would'nt work. My 2?

 

[Joe Kurland]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

The original wood is 1/4" marine plywood. Where the wood has separated from the framing, the screws pulled through the lower layers of plywood. So the question is, is 1/4" thick enough? I mean, once you countersink for the screwheads, how much thickness can be left? I don't know how old the boat is, so I don't know how many years it to to get this way. BWT above recommends using 5200 to cement the plywood to the framing. Will that make the joint strong enough to make it so I won't need to worry about the thickness of the plywood? Will the 5200 adhere to the epoxied underside of the panels?

 

[Cadwelder]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

BWT's advice is right on, and but please don't paint her. Keep the natrual wood beauty to her.

 

[BWT]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

A good source for ply is Boulter Plywood, I use them exclusively and have never had a problem with the quality of their stuff. http://www.boulterplywood.com Ask for Chris and he'll take care of you (they are in you're area I believe, or at least close). The Merranti ply would be a reasonable choice; it's a mahogany but the color is more brown than the typical red that is in the choice species. in 1/4" (it wouldn't hurt to bump the thickness up one notch; weight would be a non-issue) price is pretty reasonable. It's when you get into the thicker laminates and choice species that cost starts to hurt

As far as marine ply versus ext ply, I guess let cost determine that. There are trade off's. A marine ply will lay flatter and give a better finishing surface. As far as the glue, true marine (with a BS 1088 rating) uses water/boil proof glue. I don't know that ext uses the same quality; maybe, I can't say for certain one way or the other. If you're going to paint (for this boat personally I wouldn't) then use whatever ply you can afford (okoume would be my choice for painting. If you're going for aesthetics, use marine ply with a good veneer.

Looking forward to more pics! Good luck

~BWT

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

If OEM wood was 1/4"..and you want to go with a Paint surface.. Im wondering about MDO which Woody has brought up in other posts.

Or if you wanted another type of wood to " glass " and paint .. you could use some MG or properly prepped EXT grade ply/and ( yup this is where I would recommend ) Finish cloth/epoxy. Then prime and paint.

Personally of the 3 options I like al'Naturale. But for maintenance .. your probably better off with a painted surface ( which can look Very classy done right ). In which case I would seriously look into MDO .. Woody can give you all the ins and outs with that stuff and the sites to search for your own research.

The third option of just MG or EXT grade with Epoxy coatings and/ or glass + paint would be the most costly IMHO..

Let us know how it goes

YD.

 

[Joe Kurland]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

A few days ago I found Boulter Plywood on a search for marine plywood and was impressed by their website. They're only 100 miles away from here. Ironically, I had to drive close to there this evening, but after closing time. There's a kayak builder near here that is listed as a marine plywood dealer - I'll have to check them out too. If they have a good selection, it might pay not to have to make the trip to Boston.

Looks like most of the votes are for keeping the natural wood finish, and that's what I'm leaning towards. I'm only going to replace the two side decks this year, so I think I can keep the project affordable.

Worked on clearing out the shed some more today. With luck I'll be able to finish tomorrow and squeeze the boat inside. I'll let you all know when I'm ready to try removing the decks. Now that the boat is dry from sitting in the sun, I had hoped to get it inside before it rained, but it just started raining now. It's covered, but there are holes in the cover. Supposed to be sunny tomorrow.

 

[Joe Kurland]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

I've taken the side decks off and have exposed the frame


Here's a detailed view of one spot on the framing where some of the interior fiberglass has puled away from the embedded frame piece. It also shows the nail and screw holes that had previously held down the deck.


I've also removed the gunwales. It appears that they had been removed several times before because there are were just too many screw holes as you can see in the next photo:
Does anyone have recommendations about what to use to fill the holes?

I think I'm ready to go to Boulter Plywood in Eastern Massachusetts and buy the wood I need. Plywood, spruce to replace a broken piece of the frame, and oak molding to replace the gunwales.

Fiberglassing, epoxy supplies and varnish next. I think I want to fiberglass the decks and drape the fiberglass over the edge to lap an inch over the top edge of the hull, which will then be covered by the gunwales. I would think that would add both a waterproof seal around the edge of the decks and add strength to the bond holding the deck to the hull. I've watched some videos on how to fiberglass, such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0sO3tCIOJw but I'm still feeling somewhat nervous about it, so any suggestions you may have are welcome.

One more decision I need to make before I head to Somerville: Do I buy enough plywood for the side decks only, or for all the decks, in case I decide at some later time to replace them too? I have to decide now because it is possible to cut all of the decks from two 4' x 8' sheets of plywood, but in order to do that, the port decks and the starboard decks each need their own sheet. If I cut the two side decks from one sheet, there won't be any pieces left big enough to cut the foredeck pieces or aft deck pieces. If there's a way to renew the fore and aft decks, or to splice small sections of plywood into the fore and aft decks, then I can get by with one sheet.

After that, I guess I'll head up either to West Marine (West Systems) in Woburn or to Merton's Fiberglass supply in Springfield (System Three) for fiberglass and epoxy. Do any of you have recommendations?

Here's a detail photo of the aft deck showing a spot where a strip of the plywood top layer is separating from the core.
Is there a way I can glue that down and then fiberglass over it?

As you can see from that photo, parts of the aft deck are quite discolored. I'm hoping that if I remove the old varnish, the epoxy will help even out the color of the old wood. Any advice here?

Thanks, Joe

 

[BWT]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

Does anyone have recommendations about what to use to fill the holes?

Thickened epoxy and a plastic syringe. (My pref is west system and I think it's their 405 filler (the stuff that turns the resin brownish to kinda blend in with the color of the wood)

I think I'm ready to go to Boulter Plywood in Eastern Massachusetts and buy the wood I need. Plywood, spruce to replace a broken piece of the frame, and oak molding to replace the gunwales.

For some reason I thought the gunwales were mahogany? The few that I've seen were, but not to say that they all were..

Fiberglassing, epoxy supplies and varnish next. I think I want to fiberglass the decks and drape the fiberglass over the edge to lap an inch over the top edge of the hull, which will then be covered by the gunwales. I would think that would add both a waterproof seal around the edge of the decks and add strength to the bond holding the deck to the hull. I've watched some videos on how to fiberglass, such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0sO3tCIOJw but I'm still feeling somewhat nervous about it, so any suggestions you may have are welcome.

I've said this from the beginning; I understand the logic that it would help with the waterproofing, but remember that as the boat is sailing, the hull and deck twist and move. If glass (especially with such a small tab of an inch or so) is trying to lock these two sections, I can guarantee that it will let go on the short end and look terrible (it will pull off of the hull).

One more decision I need to make before I head to Somerville: Do I buy enough plywood for the side decks only, or for all the decks, in case I decide at some later time to replace them too? I have to decide now because it is possible to cut all of the decks from two 4' x 8' sheets of plywood, but in order to do that, the port decks and the starboard decks each need their own sheet. If I cut the two side decks from one sheet, there won't be any pieces left big enough to cut the foredeck pieces or aft deck pieces. If there's a way to renew the fore and aft decks, or to splice small sections of plywood into the fore and aft decks, then I can get by with one sheet.

My thoughts; we're talking about an extra sheet of ply? just get it Worst case scenario, if you make a mis-cut on the first sheet, you have a back up

After that, I guess I'll head up either to West Marine (West Systems) in Woburn or to Merton's Fiberglass supply in Springfield (System Three) for fiberglass and epoxy. Do any of you have recommendations?

I'm a fan of West; tried and true with consistent results. Make sure to get the pumps for dispensing

Here's a detail photo of the aft deck showing a spot where a strip of the plywood top layer is separating from the core.
Is there a way I can glue that down and then fiberglass over it?

As you can see from that photo, parts of the aft deck are quite discolored. I'm hoping that if I remove the old varnish, the epoxy will help even out the color of the old wood. Any advice here?

Worth a try; the only way I can really see it working is if you use a clear epoxy and vacuum bag to pull the veneer back onto the plywood; then build with more clear epoxy and finish with a varnish. IMO I would stay away from glassing over this (and the deck) .

Good luck!

~BWT

 

[Joe Kurland]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

For some reason I thought the gunwales were mahogany? The few that I've seen were, but not to say that they all were..

~BWT

The wood looks like oak to me. I'll bring a sample to Boulter and go with their advice.

I've said this from the beginning; I understand the logic that it would help with the waterproofing, but remember that as the boat is sailing, the hull and deck twist and move. If glass (especially with such a small tab of an inch or so) is trying to lock these two sections, I can guarantee that it will let go on the short end and look terrible (it will pull off of the hull).

~BWT

I see your reasoning and you are speaking from experience that I don't have, but I need some re-assurance. The reason I thought to use fiberglass is that the places that deteriorated were at the intersections of two pieces. I was thinking that I need some way to keep water from ever getting into those joints.

You recommended sealing the tops, bottoms and edges of the plywood with epoxy before installing them. Will I still be able to bend the plywood to fit the curve of the ribs after they have epoxy on them? Will the 5200 adhere to the epoxy?

I think there are two reasons for the deterioration of the old side decks: the nails and screws were countersunk too deep, therefore holding only the bottom layer or two of plywood, and the boat covers had holes and sagged onto the decks letting them get wet and stay wet for the years of storage before I bought the boat. Since I now can keep the boat indoors where it can stay dry and air out, I think I can avoid those problems.

But I am also wondering what to do to improve how seams between two pieces of plyood are sealed, especially where I am not replacing the old plywood such as here, between the port and starboard halves of the foredeck:

I'm a fan of West; tried and true with consistent results. Make sure to get the pumps for dispensing
~BWT

I should be able to stop at West Marine on my way to or from Boulter.

Worth a try; the only way I can really see it working is if you use a clear epoxy and vacuum bag to pull the veneer back onto the plywood; then build with more clear epoxy and finish with a varnish. IMO I would stay away from glassing over this (and the deck) .
~BWT

How is a vacuum bag used? Is there a video reference?

Good luck!
~BWT

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[BWT]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

I see your reasoning and you are speaking from experience that I don't have, but I need some re-assurance. The reason I thought to use fiberglass is that the places that deteriorated were at the intersections of two pieces. I was thinking that I need some way to keep water from ever getting into those joints.

You recommended sealing the tops, bottoms and edges of the plywood with epoxy before installing them. Will I still be able to bend the plywood to fit the curve of the ribs after they have epoxy on them? Will the 5200 adhere to the epoxy?

I think there are two reasons for the deterioration of the old side decks: the nails and screws were countersunk too deep, therefore holding only the bottom layer or two of plywood, and the boat covers had holes and sagged onto the decks letting them get wet and stay wet for the years of storage before I bought the boat. Since I now can keep the boat indoors where it can stay dry and air out, I think I can avoid those problems.

Unless glass is laid on top of the deck with epoxy (or resin) it will bend just fine. Epoxy that has been scuffed with 80 grit and cleaned w/acetone will bond tenaciously with 5200 (make sure to use the rapid cure 5200, otherwise it will stay gooey for weeks). IMO sealing all faces and edges with epoxy is the way to go with this.

But I am also wondering what to do to improve how seams between two pieces of plyood are sealed, especially where I am not replacing the old plywood such as here, between the port and starboard halves of the foredeck:

3M used to make 5200 in a tan color; have to double check that. If a thin coat of that is put on the butting seams (along with being epoxied) it will take care of issues with moisture getting between the two sections.

How is a vacuum bag used? Is there a video reference?.

I don't know how practical this would be; you need to have a good setup (vacuum pump, resin trap, sealer tape, plastic film, etc). The cost for this stuff is FAR greater then the cost of the plywood (couple grand $$). Unless you're already set up to do this, it isn't worth researching. Plus, it's a bit of a long shot if it would work and look right. Probably shouldn't have brought it up

Keep us posted on progress!!

p.s. make sure the piece of wood you bring to boulter is sanded clean so the color and grains can be seen. currently it's mottled because of the lifted finish.

~BWT

 

[Joe Kurland]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

It's been over 2 1/2 years since I've posted on this forum, so if anyone is still following this thread, I want to thank you for the advice and let you know that the restoration of Snipe #18326 is just about complete. I replaced the side decks, made repairs to rotted spots on the fore and aft decks, stripped old varnish and fiberglassed all the decks, installed new African mahogany rub rails and applied 7 coats of varnish to all the woodwork.

I've had advice through this whole project from members of the Snipe Class International Racing Association. Below is a picture of the boat after fiberglassing the decks:



And this is the completed boat on the trailer with sails raised as I was preparing it for a "shake-down cruise".



I still need to do some minor work (I'm sure that will always be true), but the restoration is essentially complete.

:joyous:

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

Congrats, nice looking Snipe

 

[Joe Kurland]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

Congrats, nice looking Snipe

Money spent @ Boat Restoration should be measured in Smiles & Pride

Thank you.
Not just money, but time, learning and help from friends makes for big smiles.

 

[Tnstratofam]

Re: Snipe: plywood deck repair advice needed

That is a beautiful boat. Sailing it must be a real joy. Great job on the redo..