Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

[jlinder]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

My $.02<br /><br />Solder<br /> Not good for mechanical strength, and it is very easy to do wrong. You can get what is called a cold solder joint where you have a bad electrical connection.<br /><br />Crimp<br /> Provides good mechanical strength and when done correctly a good electrical connection. When you use the correct crimp tool the connection is excellent. The best crimp tool would be a racheting cripmer with dies sized correctly for the splice/lug/etc. With a racheting crimper it will not release until the crimp is correctly made. It can be given to someone with little or no experience and you get reliable crimps all the time (you can screw it up, but it takes effort).<br /><br />Crimp then Solder<br /> I'm not sure of the advantage here, other than shield the crimp from exposure to the elements.<br /><br />Sealing the Connections<br /> Heard lots of good ideas here, but since I am a freshwater sailor I could not comment on how important it becomes when you hit saltwater.<br /><br />Again, My $.02

 

[BillP]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

JackL<br />Corrosion is an issue on salt water crimps if you don't do them right...that means using AWG tinned multistrand wire, double copper crimps and securing the wire every 10-12". I normally seal panels, fuse holders and crimps with CRC Lectra Shield Long Term Corrosion Inhibitor. I did this on a new pontoon boat used in saltwater for the past 7-8 yrs and they still work and look new. I have soldered crimps on another boat done back in 1986 and they are still ok too.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

Originally posted by BillP:<br /> ... Boat movement is harder on wiring than other applications like cars, etc.

One of the most hostile environments for electrical is on offshore oil drilling platforms. Boats are considered as hostile or more so due to the addition of a high level of vibration.

 

[jsmcc]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

Just remember, soldering is for electrical, not physical. Use it sparingly. Bigger glob doesn't do the job. One of the problems with Apollo 1 was too much solder at all connections.

 

[waterone1@aol.com]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

Guy's, this post has been brought up more than once and will never die. There have been several different opinions, all of which partially correct. I usually do not "go there" but this time I have to. As an electrical engineer (yes, I have a degree in that) and as a ABYC certified technician. Yes, electrical. I have to. <br />Soldering is not the standard for one reason......it is not necessary for many connections. Secondly, this is a skill that is not taught to many boat builders and service technicians. A properly prepared and executed "crimp connection" will do just fine. There is far greater danger for a bad solder joint to cause a problem, than a crimp connection.<br />With that all said, a crimp connection around the conductor will provide a good connection, however adding a properly heated and applied solder joint will ensure that the many strands of the conductor are bonded to the connector. In other words, crimping is fine....but a good solder job in addition is superior. If you are ABYC certified, and an electrical engineer I would love to debate this...other wise, I am done posting on this.

 

[ThomWV]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

Triton III,<br /><br />Yes, there is a well made DC plug (cigarette lighter recepticle) available, and from a suprising source too. Wal Mart sells a fully stainless steel one. They are black with a spring loaded lid. They can not be flush mounted in the conventional sense but are easy to mount none the less. The barrel of the recepticle is made of stainless as are all of the metal parts. It is covered with a black plastic base. I installed 3 of them in our boat about 5~6 years ago and they have shown no sign of corrosion at all. One of them is mounted outside in the cockpit where it has been subject to direct splashing by saltwater many many times and often for hours on end. The other two are in the cabin and have remained dry. I am at work at the moment but if I think about it tonight I'll see if they have a manufacturer's name on them for you.<br /><br />Whoops. I just saw that you are in Australia. That could make it harder to find one. Shoot me an E-Mail, I may have a spare one.<br /><br />Thom<br /><br />Thom

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

Originally posted by waterone1:<br /> In other words, crimping is fine....but a good solder job in addition is superior.

Really? Superior in what way?<br /><br />Fwiw, I have the Radio Shack’s ‘Intro To Electronics – Ages 8 thru 10’...with big text and lots of pictures! It is well read ... ok, I just looked at the pictures, but it has served me just fine for almost a year now.

 

[BillP]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

Originally posted by waterone1:<br /> Guy's, this post has been brought up more than once and will never die. There have been several different opinions, all of which partially correct. I usually do not "go there" but this time I have to. As an electrical engineer (yes, I have a degree in that) and as a ABYC certified technician. Yes, electrical. I have to. <br />Soldering is not the standard for one reason......it is not necessary for many connections. Secondly, this is a skill that is not taught to many boat builders and service technicians. A properly prepared and executed "crimp connection" will do just fine. There is far greater danger for a bad solder joint to cause a problem, than a crimp connection.<br />With that all said, a crimp connection around the conductor will provide a good connection, however adding a properly heated and applied solder joint will ensure that the many strands of the conductor are bonded to the connector. In other words, crimping is fine....but a good solder job in addition is superior. If you are ABYC certified, and an electrical engineer I would love to debate this...other wise, I am done posting on this.

Since you are a degreed electrical engineer and ABYC certified...why do the specs say "no solder only connections"? I am pro ABYC so don't take it as pro crimp only. Does my mech engineering tech degree, business degree and 23 yrs in semiconductor mfg combined with 40+ yrs of boating make me worthy of a reply?<br /><br />This is too funny.

 

[chuckz]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

That's any easy question. Soldering is not intended as a mechanical connection, it is for a good electrical connection. Any time you are taught to solder properly, you are taught to first make a good mechanical connection. Hence, solder only would not provide a good mechanical bond. It's a bad practice and is not the proper soldering process.<br /><br />The other reason is, most standards are written to the lowest common denominator. Crimping takes less skill than soldering. The arguement about cold solder joints is bogus. The same arguement can be made about bad crimps. The point being, to compare methods, you need to assume each process is performed properly.<br /><br />Did you know that years ago it was legal to solder splices in house wiring, tape them off and bury them in the wall? If done properly it was no problem. The electrical code is NOT written for best engingeering practices. It is written as a safety document, to make it as easy as possible to avoid a hazardous condition.

 

[BillP]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

Thanks Chuck...I knew it was safety related but didn't think of it that way.<br />bp

 

[Realgun]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

I only wanted to wire my boat not turn it into the inferno. <br />I think I will crimp, skip the solder, and the sealer, and just use the heat shrink. I will use the proper ABYC wire and connectors. Should be god for me. No Salt Water.

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

Thoms method is how I've been doing it for years except that recently I have changed my heatshrink to a fireproof brand.<br /><br />Triton, Whitworths Marine in Sydney (mail order or shop) have these - <br /><br /> http://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=123&item=33753&intAbsolutePage=1 <br /><br /><br />Aldo

 

[redmopar]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

From what I have seen in my boat, solder seems to work better. My boat is an old bassboat that was handed down to me from my mom and was originally my dad's. There has been a variety of work done on it by different people mainly early in its life 25 years ago. It is a bassboat yes, but it is exposed to salt in the flats off of SE Florida on a regular basis. It has some naked crimp connections, some sealed(scotchkote? and shrink tubing) crimp connections, and some naked solder connections that were once wrapped in electrical tape years ago. The naked crimp connections installed by the manufacture are nearly all gone. About 1/2 of the sealed crimp connections exploded in a pile of green oxidation. It appears that the shrink tubing degraded with time and the scotchkote was penitrated. A bad connection occoured and electrolysis + salt did the rest. The suprising observation is the now naked solder connections are all still hanging on. There was minor corrosion where the wire was exposed, but it was still holding. None of them are crimped but are the old style solder connectors. As we all know, if a poor connection ever occours, it will certainly fail if exposed to salt air because it is sped along by electrolysis. IMHO, sealing the connector properly will last a long time but is only a first line of defense. A proper solder connection is far more durable than a proper crimp connection from what I have seen. Wires move and the strands appear to break down where they are crimped. Soldering provides a better mechanical and electrical bond between the connector and all the strands, as opposed to crimping which only joins the connector and strands in the middle of the crimp, leaving many floating in the sides of the connector. As the older connections fail, I replace them one batch at a time with ThomWV's method and douse anything exposed like terminals with corrosion-x. I don't know how much longer I will have this boat, bit I feel confident that the electrical fixes I have made will be trouble free for another 25+ years. A little more work buys alot more time but whomever adopts soldering needs to do it properly as ThomWV described.

 

[tvpear12]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

Now class, behave your self, we are in in class right now. Think ill trade my prof from automobile machinest to a solder tech. seems as though by the amount of att: I should make a million in say a couple days. get er done.

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

Originally posted by L.I. Chuck:<br /> The arguement about cold solder joints is bogus. The same arguement can be made about bad crimps. The point being, to compare methods, you need to assume each process is performed properly.<br />

I agree with everything else you've said but the arguement about a cold solder joint is not totally bogus and can't be said about bad crimp connections (atleast the arguements I've read). YES they will both cause a poor connection with high resistance and will create heat BUT, with a cold solder joint you will end up with the solder melting and the joint pulling apart. With the method that Thom showed with the properly sealed, secured connection this may not be a huge deal because the loose connection isn't going anywhere. But if you have a poorly sealed, loose connection (mostly solder only) you'll end up with a live wire bouncing around doing who knows what kind of damage.<br /><br />Now with that being said I'm going to also agree with you hehe If you have a cold solder joint that melts due to excessive heat and that joint then becomes loose and a possible short, shouldn't it be properly fused with a short burning fuse to eliminate that problem? Also with the joint now pulled apart, there is no more heat being generated, where as with the bad crimp connection the joint is still together and will still generate heat, possibly causing more problems (ie, burning and shorting a whole wiring harness and causing a fire). Even with that same wire being fused, you'd need a thermal type fuse before this situation could be averted.<br /><br />With the extra time and money you do spend using Thom's method of making a connection (barrel, spade, loop, etc) will save you money and time in the long wrong. BUT for it to be effective it has to be done properly and all wires supported correctly, and sealed properly. Don't ever underestimate the consequences of a bad wiring job on ANYTHING. You wouldn't breeze through the wiring in your home and skip steps and possibly cause a fire, why do it to something like your boat?<br /><br />One last thing (I know this is getting long) but freshwater can be just as harsh on an electrical connection as salt water. It may not be as corrosive and as immediate of a threat as salt water, but on the same hand it does show its damaging effects as quickly as salt water can. I see this happen all the time on bikes where a connection looks just fine but once you dissect it you can clearly see what water (rain) has done to it, and yes as short as a couple months after the wiring being done.<br /><br />Very good article Thom, and a very nice connection. Also a very good discussion on something well worth it. Nothing will bring your boating fun to a quicker end then bad wiring.

 

[garzaglass]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

AGGGHHHHHHH <br />this is the perfect thread for me with pics but the pics arent showing up. just a red x. anybody know where I can get these pics?

 

[CN Spots]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

He probably had them on a pic hosting site but has since removed them, severing the link.<br /><br />Add a new topic with your question/problem and Thom might repost 'em. If he's still around that is...<br /><br /><br />spots

 

[phantoms]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

garza, the properties for the pic show it's hosted by a user of westco.net. That user is tandjlm. So if that is still his network provider, e-mailing tandjlm @ westco.net might get you the pictures.

 

[woosterken]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

Garzaglass,and every body check this site out.how to solder. circuittechctr.com then hit guides.more than you ever wanted to know about solder with pictures.<br />hope this helps, ken

 

[mikemerrill50]

Re: Soldering vs, Crimping Volume II

i typically just choose to be safe. as a few mentioned above, i choose to use a crimped connector with a heat shrink surrounding, solder the connector, then heat the heat shrink. i'm not sure, and I won't argue what the best methods are, but I have never had a problem with these connections on my truck or other cars I have done electrical work with. i guess it kinda covers all your bases... haha. solder, crimp, heatshrink. If I don't solder the connector, I at least make sure to use heatshrink on all connections on my jetski or trailer (haven't done the boat yet).