Solenoid problem maybe?

[parratt1]

Hello all,
A little background here. At the end of the summer last year I was having trouble with starting my boat. 25' suntracker pontoon with a 120hp Force motor. Seemed like when I would try to turn it over, it would act like the battery was almost dead, but would eventually go ahead and start. I keep my batteries fully charged with an onboard charger which I hook up every time I get back to the dock. Finally, it got to where it would not crank at all. Yesterday I went out and tried it again and nothing. When you turn the key you can hear the solenoid click but the starter will not spin up to the flywheel. I took off the starter and bench tested it and it spun right up with no problem. I read somewhere yesterday that if the solenoid clicks then it is probably functional. Anyone have any ideas? Starter going out? Bad solenoid
possibly? I just want to try a few things before I have to take it in to get repaired.
Thanks in advance.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

90% of starter trouble is bad cable, or connections, or a dead cell in the battery, can be load tested at the auto parts store. take the battery cables + & -, loose on both ends and clean the connections, also check for any nicks,cut, etc. moisture will get inside and they corrode , from the inside out. leaving 1 or 2 strands of wire, just enough to make the solenoid click. also check the cable from the solenoid to the starter. if this doesn't work post back.

 

[Texasmark]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

When you turn the key to start you apply 12v to the starter solenoid (energizing coil) which pulls the high current contacts together supplying voltage to the starter.

If the voltage is low it may not spin the starter fast enough to cause the starter gear (Bendix mechanism) to engage the flywheel. Low voltage is caused either by the battery being low, or resistance in the circuit between the battery and starter.

Do to the nature of corrosion problems, they just get worse and act just like a discharging (discharged) battery.

As tas said, clean all up your connections in the high current path (large wires) including removing and cleaning the battery terminal lugs (the lead part too if you have it)....and you should be good to go.

The solenoid could be your problem, but I'd clean up external cables first....take the lugs off the terminals and clean up the whole thing "nice and bright" then put them back together nice and tight (considering what you are tightening).

Mark

 

[parratt1]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

Thanks guys for those fast responses. I guess I failed to mention that yesterday I also cleaned all connections that hooked into the solenoid and from solenoid to starter. I did not clean the battery end ones, or the negative end going into the motor. I guess I just assumed that if the solenoid was clicking it should be working. Is there a way to measure the voltage at the end of the positive cable before it goes into the solenoid? I have a digital multimeter but I am embarrased to say I could not figure out how to work it yesterday. Does it take a special kind to measure the voltage of a battery?

 

[drewpster]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

A bad ground connection can, and often do, cause slow starter problems. Eliminate all possible resistance problems before getting too far ahead. Since the starter spins on the bench I am inclined to believe you have a wiring problem.
There is a way to check resistance through the solenoid. Disconnect the batt/start cables from the solenoid. Leave only the wires used to energize the solenoid in place. Turn the key or use a jumper to energize the solenoid. Set your meter to the OHMS setting. Touch the meter's test leads to the larger posts only. Any reading over .2-.5 ohm is too much resistance.
Another method would be to measure voltage drop across the posts with the solenoid energized. Take a battery voltage measurement across the battery posts, note it. Energize the solenoid with the starter disconnected from it. You should read the same voltage at the solenoid output post as you did at the battery itself. Anything less than battery voltage indicates a problem in the solenoid high voltage contacts.
I would concentrate on all the connections, positive and negative before getting too far. A connection may look fine and be tight but still cause enough resistance to be a problem. We use four 750 amp batteries to start our trucks. A single bad connection anywhere in the high volt circuit reeks havoc even with 3000 amps available! Check em all close, marine starters are expensive.

 

[parratt1]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

Drewpster,
"You should read the same voltage at the solenoid output post as you did at the battery itself. Anything less than battery voltage indicates a problem in the solenoid high voltage contacts."

When I do this am I holding red test lead from voltmeter on the solenoid and black to the battery ground on motor or red on high output post and black to the high input post?

I just measured voltage on battery at 12.34 and voltage on input side of solenoid at 12.34 so voltage is the same there. I will go check like you said and report back in a few.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

You of course need to make all your measurements while someone is activating the solenoid(like Drepster noted). What you are doing by measuring every point in the chain is looking for where the voltage drop is. By activating the solenoid you are putting the circuit under load.

 

[drewpster]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

The solenoid has two independent circuits. One runs from the switch. Power from the switch closes the solenoid. A spring opens it when the key is released. (click, click sound) The other circuit runs directly from battery positive to the starter motor. When the key is turned the solenoid closes (click). This pushes the contacts together sending power directly from the battery positive post to the start motor.
The circuit you should check is the starter circuit. The only way to do this is with the solenoid closed. (key turned to start) This will close the solenoid and you should read battery voltage on the battery-to-solenoid post AND the solenoid-to-start motor post.
Connect your meter's negative lead to a good ground on the engine block. Preferably to where the battery ground cable connects to the engine block. With the solenoid CLOSED (key turned) take a voltage measurement where the battery cable connects to the solenoid AND where the solenoid connects to the starter. Both posts on the solenoid should read the same voltage as the battery.
If the output voltage of the CLOSED solenoid is less than battery voltage, its bad.

 

[parratt1]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

Alright,
I pulled the solenoid and the starter and cleaned all of the contacts. I then pulled the cables off the battery and cleaned the posts and cable ends. Put everything back together and charged the battery. Went out this morning and the starter would work again but was back to barely cranking the motor. Seemed like it was cranking but in slow motion. I am not sure how to express it in words.
Anyway....Would do that a few times and then it was back to just the solenoid clicking again. I checked voltage at the battery and then at the input lug of the solenoid and it read 12.66 on my multimeter.I did not have a chance to check the voltage on the starter side of the solenoid yet as I do not have anyone to turn the key while I am in back getting the reading off the multimeter.
Does this sound like a particular problem to anyone? Starter going bad......Still a corroded connection.....etc. I am open to any ideas here. I really want to fix this before I have to take it to someone and pay an arm and two legs!!
Thank you

 

[Boatin Bob]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

If it were me and you can do this safely I would take a big screwdriver across the terminals on the solenoid and short them out, if the starter turns good then it's most likely a bad solenoid, if it's no different then it's either the starter or further back stream like the battery itself.

 

[parratt1]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

Bob,
I tried with the screwdriver. I shorted across the two big lugs on the solenoid. Not a single thing happened. That is why I origionally thought it was the solenoid. But then with everything cleaned and charged this morning, it would turn over the engine at least just really really slow. Also, I have three batteries in my boat and tried each one to see if it was a bad battery and got the same result each time. My cranking battery is the one that reads 12.66 volts as of this morning, which I would think would rule out the battery. I do not see how it can be a bad connection as I cleaned every one till "bright and shiny", and tightened them back up nicely. Is it possible that the starter is going bad? Maybe it will spin up like when bench tested, but when it meets the resistance of the flywheel it is too weak to turn it fast enough to start?
Maybe?

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

pull the starter take to auto parts store they can test it.

 

[parratt1]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

I called my local Auto Zone sunday and they informed me that they do not test outboard motor starters. Only auto starters. Maybe I will try a different store. I bench tested myself and it seemed fine. I grounded and then hooked up the positive lead. Is there a different test they do that shows if the starter is working at less that optimum? Maybe I should try a place that rebuilds them?

 

[Boatin Bob]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

By process of elimination, you've tried different batteries with the same results, you've literally bypassed the solenoid with the screwdriver test, you've removed and cleaned all cable connections, only thing left is the starter itself or something wrong with the engine causing too big a load for the starter to handle? Go with your idea to take it to a place that rebuilds these starters, even if there is a small service charge to test it at least you'll know.

 

[drewpster]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

The one thing that still concerns me is that when you used a screwdriver to bypass the solenoid, nothing happened. Maybe we need to know a little more about your setup.
Does your solenoid look like this?



View attachment 1669

If so, the two posts on either side of the solenoid are the ones you need to jump across. With all the wires connected, the starter should turn, slow or note . Some pictures would help here if you can add them.

 

[drewpster]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

Here is another type of solenoid.

View attachment 1671


Iboats lists this type for Force Outboard.

View attachment 1672

Which one do you have?

 

[parratt1]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

Drewpster,
Mine is the second type. I went ahead and retried arcing the two big lugs again and got spark this time. I went ahead and pulled the starter at that point and took it to a rebuilder. He called me this morning laughing and said he had no idea how it even turned. He said all brushes were burnt up and that the shaft was bent. He said he could also tell that it had at some point become extremely hot. I know that is true because it got stuck in the start position 2 years ago and I had to disconnect the batteryand remove the starter to free it up. Oh and wait two hours to cool down before it could be handled. Anyway he said it was no even able to be rebuilt but he would give me back the parts that were good if I wanted. I went ahead and ordered a new one and it should be here in the morning. I will reinstall it and let you guys know what happens.
Thanks for everyones help and keep your fingers crossed for me!
Jeremy

 

[drewpster]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

Ok, now I think maybe the starter is bad. You should get a new one.

 

[Jimdsi]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

Most likely is the starter. You might have mentioned the overheat situation a little earlier in your posts. That was an important tidbit of information. I have two other things that actually happened to me that caused the same symptoms. ( Bendix drive not engaging the flywheel, just spins the starter )

One was a bad Perko Batt. switch which caused a significant voltage drop under load so the starter got around 8 or 9 volts. Enough to spin, but not engauge.

The second one was my own fault. Every fall during winterization, I would spray the entire exterior of the engine with CRC oil preservative. The top of the starter and bendix drive would get some accumulation also. Problem was the CRC gets hard and sticky after a while. It got to the point that the bendix drive was "glued" to the shaft and was not free to pop up into the flywheel. A few shots of carb cleaner freed up everything to work OK.

Live and learn.

 

[parratt1]

Re: Solenoid problem maybe?

Well,
I picked up the new starter on friday. Got it on friday afternoon. Crossed my fingers and hit the key. Man oh man that that starter turns fast!!!!! That was the problem. I got the muffs on and turned on the garden hose, squeezed the fuel bulb till hard and cranked. After about the third short burst she was purrin like a kitten. I don't think it has ever started so easy!
I just wanted to let you guys know and maybe it will help someone reading this post in the future. Thanks guys for all your help!
Jeremy