Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connections

[WA-Newb]

So I frantically tried getting my boat ready for the annual salmon derby tomorrow...did all the hard stuff and left the brand new starter for last since it should have been easy...not..lol

The motor is a Johnson 120 (1987) and I got anew starter because the teeth on the old one were really chewed up and it was dragging with noise.

After installing brand new fully charged and tested battery and cleaning ALL the connections I put in the brand new starter.

1. The starter at times raises up and engages but the gear on the starter just spins on the bolt at times (armature?)
2. The teeth on the new starter got dinged a bit after the first turn over..maybe this is normal?
3. The starter will not lower back down when I turn the key off..only some times.
4. the motor still doesn't seem to spin as fast as I "think" it should...but really have no idea.

So does anyone know any reasons for any of those?
Can the starter be misaligned? Maybe a bad..new starter?
It also has a much different gear thingy then the old one..I can keep turning the gear by hand without turning the starter where as the old one will turn the starter once you turn it past the top point...hard to explain I guess..lol

Thank you.

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

Post a video if you can as hard to tell without seeing it.
Check your stater shaft has no play in it.
The gear not dropping down can occur now and again on a starter when the motor hasnt started

 

[F_R]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

I have no idea concerning your particular situation, but some starters have an overrunning clutch in the "gear thingy" as you call it. Sometimes they slip (defective). Hey, now that I think about it, that is exactly what happened to my 2000 Chevy. I had to jack it up and change it in a parking lot.

 

[racerone]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

Is this starter a factory replacement or aftermarket ??

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

Just a dumb question because I encountered a similar problem with a V-4.......... how old are the battery cables and do they feel warm at the battery connection end? Battery cables "look good" on the outside however, corrode inside and it raises the resistance which deliver's lower power to the starter. Check the cables under the insulation for corrosion

 

[wrench 3]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

I think Bob's on the right track. It sounds like you're getting a voltage drop somewhere. Those starters use the initial spin of the starter to jog the gear up into the flywheel. If that first spin isn't fast enough the gear won't go up.
If you can get your hands on a volt meter, check the voltage at the battery (directly on the led battery posts) while some one turns the key to start. Then move the leads one at a time to the next connection along the system. Check at each connection on the positive side. Then move the positive test lead back to the battery and move the negative lead up the system. If you get a voltage reading that drops more than three volts, clean or replace that component.

 

[FlaCowboy]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

A brand new fully charged battery...? Does this battery have the Correct "Cranking Amps" needed for your motor...?

 

[racerone]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

Was the new starter order as being for a V-4 ?--------Or a V-4 crossflow ?-------Or a V-4 looper engine ?

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

first thing is to unbolt the neg lead from the motor and clean the mounting point and the wire terminal. Then get a meter and and put the black lead to the neg on the battery (jam it in if you can so you don't have to hold it). Get someone to turn the key for 2 seconds and record the voltage at these points

pos battery terminal
pos battery side of solenoid
starter terminal side of solenoid
starter pos terminal on starter

Now repeat with the neg lead of the meter touching a clean part of the engine block (bolt head)

no reading should be lower than 11v. It sounds like a wire or solenoid has high resistance so the voltage is dropping. The volt readings will prove where the problem is. Post back the results

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

I am just getting home from a long day with the in-laws...thanks for all the replies

So here is some more information...I did a search on Ebay again for a starter and found an image of the one I was sent.
I have attached the one I got from them (and it was an Ebay seller) and have attached an image of what mine looks like.

I did just email them and ask if they possibly sent me the wrong one...still waiting to hear back.

You can see the differences in the gears..and there is no indentation around the mounting bolt holes on the one I received...not sure if that matters or not but it is maybe an 1/8 of an inch so maybe it does.

F_R..I think the one I got does have one of those clucth thinggys...as I can hold the shaft and spin the gear by hand non stop and my old one will stop spinning once it reaches the top of the threads.

racerone...I just ordered the one that had my serial number listed...so never thought of a difference between the two Loopers or Crossflows. As mentioned it was from an Ebay seller...but someone who sells many new starters.

Bob_VT...glen and Wrench...the cables do look very good but tomorrow I will do these checks to see if I am losing voltage...it's pouring rain and is dark right now..maybe I can get the wife to help tonight but won't count on it..lol

Cowboy..I was using my neighbors new battery just to make sure mine wasn't the cause of any of this..had the exact same results so brought his back to him this morning...not sure of his amps but it was a good sized deep cycle battery.
Mine which has the same exact results and is less than a year old was Wal-marts top battery.
Everstart Maxx 29DC
675 Cold cranking amps
845 Marine cranking amps

Again thank you all for the replies..I am waiting to hear back from the seller on Ebay..maybe they sent me the wrong starter...or maybe the cables are bad somewhere...hopefully I will get it figured out but still irritated that I missed the derby over this...err...lol

One more question...would the ignition switch have any voltage that would need to be tested? or just what was already posted?

Thanks.

 

[oldboat1]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

seems like a better option would be to have the original starter rebuilt. That bendix gear would be replaced as part of the rebuild. But you would want to confirm that the current starter is appropriate for your motor first.

I would think the damage to the gear is a concern. The flywheel ring gear may likewise be damaged. There used to be a good shop in West Seattle if you don't have one in Port Angeles -- probably still around.

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

no the ignition switch would not need testing as its just closing the solenoid. the solenoid either closes or it doesn't and as your starter is trying then it does close. This is not a new problem and we see it a lot every year on the forum. My guess is a the solenoid is dirty and the points have burnt causing a voltage loss but ive also seen and had to replace the cable from the solenoid to the start on one of my motors. so its better to test and find the problem then it is to replace parts

 

[oldboat1]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

in process of confirming whether replacement starter is the correct one, but apparently has a damaged gear even if it is correct. However, the gear could be replaced if the starter is the correct one and is to be used. It's likely, in my opinion, that the failure of the gear to properly function is due to a voltage drop somewhere, as indicated. But there is still the need for a working starter, fresh Bendix gear if appropriate, and beyond that it sounds like the ring gear might be damaged. It sounds like multiple issues.

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

Here are the results along with some photos and videos.

first thing is to unbolt the neg lead from the motor and clean the mounting point and the wire terminal. Then get a meter and and put the black lead to the neg on the battery (jam it in if you can so you don't have to hold it). Get someone to turn the key for 2 seconds and record the voltage at these points

Grounded to battery results:
pos battery terminal 12.99
pos battery side of solenoid 12.97 or 11.09 while cranking
starter side of solenoid 10.28 while cranking
starter pos terminal 11.09 down to 10.96 while cranking

Grounded to motor bolt
pos battery terminal 12.62
pos battery side of solenoid 12.62 or 11.09 while cranking
starter side of solenoid 11.70 same when cranking
starter pos terminal 11.70 same when cranking

Trying to turn flywheel by hand..starter is stuck in raised position.

Old starter teeth #1


Old starter teeth #2


Raised starter


Starter at flywheel


As for rebuilding the old starter...I took it apart and the brushes are bad..the top gear is really bad as you can see..and when I spin it by hand it makes a bad grinding noise yet I can't see anything inside that would cause that since there's just the magnets..no burrs or anything but sounds like bad bearings.

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

Video of it cranking over..or trying to crank.

(could only add one video per post)

 

[racerone]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

Take the sparkplugs out and turn the motor by hand.-----Any tight spots ?

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

Yeah do that^. with plugs out it should have no tight spots coming on

 

[oldboat1]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

well, original starter may be toast from what you say and how it looks, although it may look worse than it is. The flywheel ring gear looks fine from the pictures (which is a little curious, with that much damage to the bendix gear -- but no matter, the flywheel appears to be OK.) Can't tell whether the gears are meshing properly, but the damage to the old gear may indicate that just the edge of the gear was making contact. The new gear APPEARS to be catching the edge of the ring gear teeth -- but not sure what would follow from that (i.e., not meshing). Wrong starter or wrong gear, maybe, or mounted too far out from the flywheel -- almost want to shim it in.

So I guess you are waiting to confirm whether you have the right starter for your motor, and that does seem like it ought to be step one. Per Racerone's suggestion, though, it would be good to know whether the flywheel spins freely and smoothly, starter issues aside. And if the starter is still attached, you could try it with the plugs out to see if the gears mesh properly and if it spins the motor without compression present. The bendix is not going to travel back down the shaft unless there are sufficient flywheel rpms to kick it down, but the new one sure does look different from the old one. The shaft looks shorter -- hard to tell from pics.

 

[wrench 3]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

Grounded to battery results:
pos battery terminal 12.99
pos battery side of solenoid 12.97 or 11.09 while cranking
starter side of solenoid 10.28 while cranking
starter pos terminal 11.09 down to 10.96 while cranking

Grounded to motor bolt
pos battery terminal 12.62
pos battery side of solenoid 12.62 or 11.09 while cranking
starter side of solenoid 11.70 same when cranking
starter pos terminal 11.70 same when cranking

The only thing you missed was to take readings with grounded to starter housing. But the voltage sounds OK.

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: Starter issues with brand new starter, new charged battery and cleaned connection

Take the sparkplugs out and turn the motor by hand.-----Any tight spots ?

Finally had time to do this test...fingers are ice sickles as I am typing this..lol

With the spark plugs out I can turn the flywheel...but I put them back in and it got stuck again???

Hoping that's not a real bad thing...ugh!

Also, got news from the Ebay seller..they told me to just return the starter and they will send me a new one..they didn't really comment on if I got the right one but said some starters do have differences even for the right years..I guess it's that thinggy that was mentioned. So now that will be a couple week wait I am sure..I may bring my old starter to a starter shop to see if they can check it out in the meantime.

Thank you all for all the comments and help thus far.