Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

[EdwardNigma]

I'm looking at buying a boat with a 1978 175 hp Johnson outboard. The owner has let me have it for the winter to look it over prior to completing the sale this spring, pending me being satisfied that the motor isn't junk. I posted about this a few weeks ago and got some good advice on what to look for if I could get it running in a tank.<br /><br /> I decided to try some of that advice yesterday and ran into some a snag, possibly a big one. In one way or another the starter is failing to do it's job. I started out by trying to use the battery that came with the boat. This battery looks like she's been around for awhile, but this fancy smart battery charger I have thinks the battery is in decent shape. When I turned the key the starter spins up and the bendix pops about half way up the shaft and just spins there. It's still well short of engaging the flywheel<br /><br /> I tried greasing the shaft that the bendix runs on in case it was sticky from age. No change. Next I suspected the battery so I pulled out my charger which has a 100 amp engine boost and tried that. No change. Upping the ante again, I pulled a relatively new battery out of a car and connected it to the original battery with jumper cables. Same thing, bendix moves up maybe an inch and just spins.<br /><br /> Next I tried turning the bendix up by hand and engaging the flywheel, then turned the key. This at least got the flywheel turning, but too slowly to start. You could see it struggle and slow on the compression stroke and then speed up a little on the downstrokes. Again, nowhere near fast enough to start it.<br /><br /> Finally I tried disconnecting the old battery and connecting the known good battery directly to the motor. This got the bendix to come up and engage on it's own, but the motor turned even more slowly than before. It barely managed to get past the compression stroke.<br /><br /> So this leaves me wondering what to try next? Is this a bad starter? A bad solenoid? Should the battery cables be replaced? Is there some way to test the starter motor? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[MCM]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

Try the advice in this post from the FAQ section first.<br /><br /> http://forums.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=000001

 

[JB]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

Hmmmm. That link goes nowhere. Did you mean this one?<br /> http://forums.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=000001

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

apparently the FAQ isn't working. 1 hooking good battery to old depletes good batteries charge. make sure a wiring connections are clean and tight. if this does work, good. you might try pulling the plugs, putting some permixed gas in clylinders to lube, and see if it will turn over then. How long has it been sitting. i'm not a tech but some how i keep mine running.

 

[MCM]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

Yep.... forgot to fix that URL. Just another old bookmark from before the upgrade <br /><br />Hate it when that happens <br /><br /> EDIT: Fixed it.

 

[EdwardNigma]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

The owner had it last running going on about 3 years ago now. When I last talked to him a month or so ago he indicated that it had been in working condition the last time he'd used it. After finally calling it quits yesterday I took the known good battery and put it back in the car I'd pulled it from. It was able to start the car with no problem. It looks like I'm going to need to hook things up again and get out the voltmeter. That may have to wait several days though unless I can talk a buddy into letting me use a heated garage. It looks like the WI weather is about to go to crap again.

 

[MCM]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

My guess is that if those are the original battery cables, peel back some of the insulation and you'll probaly find the cable is on its way to becoming green mush....corrosion will kill the starting circuit.

 

[EdwardNigma]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

From what I recall yesterday, the cables do look rather old so they might well be original. They also look somewhat anemic in terms of gauge. The owner had left the boat uncovered and exposed to the elements for a number of months before I got my hands on it so it's quite possible the cables have been exposed to considerable moisture. I'll try to get a look at that before the rain/snow sets in today. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[MCM]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

If you replace them they should be replaced with 4 gauge wire. Also new terminal connectors would be a good idea as well if you choose to make your own.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

Ed... If a cable is faulty, loose, or tight ut has a dirty connection, it will become quite hot in a very short time period of cranking. Simply feel the cables for this type problem.<br /><br />Being absolutely sure that the cables are tight and clean, and you have a good battery which is fully charged, the starter should spin extremely fast. If it does, and the bendix still doesn't engage the flywheel, clean the bendix assembler with WD40.<br /><br />NOTE: Do not apply grease or oil to that bendix assemble as that will collect dirt and cause binding of the bendix. Hopefully this is your only problem.<br /><br />However, if the problem persists, after double checking the battery condition, connect a voltmeter to between the starter cable stud and a powerhead ground, then engage the starter with the ignition key. It should read 12 volts.<br /><br />Also, connect that volt meter between the battery cable of the starter solenoid and ground. That should read 12 volts with the engine NOT being cranked over, and just slightly less when it IS being cranked.<br /><br />Let us know what you find.

 

[byacey]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

I saw a starter recently that had a permanent magnet field that cracked, and the particles were lodging between the armature and the field/ housing. It drew lots of current and was dragging. Worn bushings or bad bearings could cause the same problem. If you know someone who has a magnetic type current meter - (this is the type that has a little extruded aluminum piece that you lay the starter wire into) and measure the current. By my estimate, your starter shouldn't draw more than about 80 Amps. You can also measure with a digital volt meter between the + battery post and the lug connection on the starter. There shouldn't be more than .5 volts difference while cranking. If it's higher, you have some bad connections and / or wire.

 

[Solittle]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

If it has not been run in 3 years you may need to rebuild the carbs to get it running or get it running right. As for testing I suggest that you get a seperate 6 gal tank with fresh fuel (use premix). <br /><br />The owner must be a friend as I have never heard of a seller lending his boat to a prospective buyer for a trial of several months.

 

[EdwardNigma]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

Unfortunately I haven't been able to rope someone into helping me with a voltmeter, but I have been able to do some further testing. I picked up a new deep cycle / starting hybrid battery and a pair of heavy duty jumper cables. I connected these directly to the starter (negative cable to the motor grounding lug and positive cable to the stud on the starter housing) and got the same results. The motor would spin up and get the bendix about half way up it's shaft and keep it there. It still wouldn't kick it up high enough to engage the flywheel. Does this narrow the problem down to a failed starter motor?

 

[EdwardNigma]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

Originally posted by SoLittle:<br /> If it has not been run in 3 years you may need to rebuild the carbs to get it running or get it running right. As for testing I suggest that you get a seperate 6 gal tank with fresh fuel (use premix). <br /><br />The owner must be a friend as I have never heard of a seller lending his boat to a prospective buyer for a trial of several months.

I wouldn't be surprised if the carbs need some work, but so far I haven't been able to get to the point of being able to check them. I did pick up a small portable fuel tank for testing as I wasn't about to trust whatever fuel may have been left in the onboard tank.<br /><br />The owner was a total stranger before I contacted him about the boat. The boat's interior had been refurbished several years ago, but due to what are apparently poor quality materials the seats and carpeting rotted and cracked only a year after that was done. The owner was quite upset by this and coupled with not having much time left for boating anymore, he decided to sell the boat for nothing more than the cost of the motor. It sat outside with a forsale sign for several months before I contacted him and asked if I could have it for the winter to look over if I put some money down on it. And here we are... troubleshooting the starter.

 

[JB]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

Yup. <br /><br />You can replace it, take it to an automotive starter rebuilder or you can dismantle it yourself.<br /><br />If you take it apart check the brushes for length, breakage or grooving and the armature (DANG! I hate it when I can't think of the word. Those copper segments on the armature that the brushes contact.) for corrosion and wear. The armature can be checked by a motor rebuilder with a device called a grinder, which will identify any open or shorted windings.<br /><br />You also should check, if you haven't already, the bendix shaft for burrs or other mechanical blocks to passage of the bendix gear.<br /><br />Good luck.

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

Here ya go JB, commutator???....

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

Ed.... If the starts spins extremely fast as it should, the bendix assy may simply be dirty. Clean it with WD40 if that's the case.<br /><br />However, if it spins slowly even when connected directly, follow the advice above.

 

[JB]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

OOps. <br /><br />Yes, Rick. I meant commutator. <br /><br />I also meant growler where I said grinder.<br /><br />Part of my vocabulary just took the morning off, and no, I hadn't had any longnecks.

 

[DHPMARINE]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

No long necks can be a problem.Took me awhile to come up with growler,also.<br />And I own one.<br /><br />DHP

 

[snagroms]

Re: Starter not starting, but whose fault is it?

I also have a 78 175 that had slow starter issues. Similar tests to you including the jumper cable test. Replaced wires, replaced solenoid and put new brushes and cap on old starter and still had issues. I opted to go with a new ARCO (arco marine on the web) starter (pretty cheap for these motors) instead of rebuilding and have had no issues since. I realize your just looking at buying but this may be the easiest way. <br /><br />Strong motor in general, easy to work on (with OEM Manual) but a little thirsty on the fuel side. Yes, long necks were involved while fixing all this!