Starting All Over

jsalz

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Jun 12, 2008
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103
My 74 50hp Johnson is giving me fits. I have tried everything and anything to get her running right again. My problem is not making RPMs under load. I believe it is running too rich. What are some causes of a rich running outboard.
Thanks
 

JB

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Re: Starting All Over

Incorrectly adjusted float, bad seat in float needle valve, obstruction of the needle itself.

Since there are 2 carbs you may have one cylinder not making power at higher speeds due to any of the above or due to some other problem, like gummed jets.

It would be helpful to know if the engine ever ran to your satisfaction, what WOT rpm you got then and what rpm you are getting now.

Jumping to conclusions like "it is running too rich" can really interfere with logical troubleshooting, even if it is correct.
 

jsalz

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Re: Starting All Over

Thanks JB,
I totally cleaned and rebuilt carbs with new floats as well. I tested by blowing in each while open and closed. Followed manual and guides I found here to the letter. Think I should redo them?
 

jsalz

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Re: Starting All Over

At one time the boat ran well and got up on plane. This was only after I had changed and gapped plugs. The RPMs died after about 20 minutes. When I took out the fresh plugs, they were black and oily. That's when I rebuilt carbs. Sorry no tach. Compression 125/130.
 

R.Johnson

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Re: Starting All Over

I won't touch a 50 HP twin without doing a compression test first. I believe those engines came from the factory broke, or on the verge of breaking.
 

jsalz

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Re: Starting All Over

I won't touch a 50 HP twin without doing a compression test first. I believe those engines came from the factory broke, or on the verge of breaking.

From what I have read on these forums, 125/130 is well within acceptable compression. Must have got a good one.
 

R.Johnson

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Re: Starting All Over

Take the cylinder head off that engine, and see what the figures' tell you. Do that before you spend any time, or money.
 

jsalz

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Re: Starting All Over

I'm not sure what your getting at. Are you talking about piston, cylinder, ring measurements? Doesn't the comp test give you some indication that its ok mechanically. If not, why do the test?
 

R.Johnson

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Re: Starting All Over

Those figures sound high, not uncommon for a 2 cycle with damaged cylinder walls. I once had to laugh to my self when pulling into the parking lot at the Waukegan Service School. There on the rack outside was a early twin cylinder 50 HP. I wondered to myself if they thought the thing was contagious to have inside.
 

freddyray21

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Jun 10, 2006
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Re: Starting All Over

I had one and it ran fine. Didn't know there was supposed to be a problem with them.
 

R.Johnson

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Re: Starting All Over

I know I am coming down hard on that engine, but I don't like to see anyone sink money in it. It was not the last word in longevity. In the shops' I worked at, they discouraged any serios repairs, so the feeling was just not my own.
 

jsalz

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Re: Starting All Over

Wow a shop that discourages serious repairs. That's unusual. If there is anyone who isn't ready to throw in the towel, I'd love to hear from you.
 

JB

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Re: Starting All Over

You would save us a lot of asking if you would detail the "everything and anything" you have tried and why you did it.

Even experienced and factory trained techs had a hard time with those early twin loopers, but they can be made to run well. It wouldn't be around 34 years later if it was a lemon.

I do not take compression of 125/130 as evidence of any mechanical trouble. I think you may have ignition trouble or carb trouble. Do you have compression numbers from when she ran well?

Tell us what you did and why. Then we can look into remaining suspects.
 
D

DJ

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Re: Starting All Over

I have a 1975 50 HP twin looper. My compression readings are 145 in each. Yours are fine, the variance could just be the tester.

I would decarb it though. See link below.

If you're running rich, as you suspect you are, it could also be an issue with the fuel pump. A leak in the fuel pump diaphragm will let fuel by and make it run rich.

If its the original pump, you can just about bet it's time to rebuild it with ethanol freindly parts.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=158076
 

jsalz

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103
Re: Starting All Over

First of all,
Thanks to everyone who is trying to help. I really appreciate the effort.
Now for a little history,
1.Bought the boat a few months ago (first time boat owners with absolutely no experience when it comes to outboard motor).

2. Took boat for a spin because we didn't know any better. Max speed around 10mph gps.

3. Bought manual and searched web and found Iboats. Quickly joined.

4. Replace spark plugs and tilted motor a little aft of boat because we felt the motor was a undersized and having a hard time getting the bow out of the water. Boat took off initially, hitting approximately 28mph gps. Motor then preceeded to bog and noticeably lose RPM's. Thought it was water in the gas because it took off once again a little later but then fell on its face once more. Limped back to shore.

5. Replaced fuel pump. Don't ask me why. I read something here it seemed like it would help and the fuel pump was original. Made no difference.

6. Took to shop because we were out of ideas. Mechanic found that the low speed needle valves packing was gone and needles had backed themselves out so much that it was actually flooding out the motor when trying to get WOT. Initially, this seemed to fix it, we got up to speed and on plane for a good 45 minutes and brought it back to shore. Next time out, motor bogged when trying to get to WOT. What happened?

7. After advice of everyone on Iboats, totally dismantled, soaked, cleaned and blew out carburetors. Rebuilt with new carb kits including new floats. Replaced all fuel lines. Was so sure that would do it, but nope. Maybe hit 10mph again and very clearly not hitting RPM's like it did in the past.

8. Crack in one of the ignition coils. Checked spark with spark tester on both coils and both seemed OK. Was advised by a few members here that ignition coils are known to go bad at high temps so I just replaced the cracked one. Retested with spark tester and jumped a 3/8 gap with strong blue snap on both coils. Went to ramp and still no RPM's at WOT.

9. Did a Link and Sync according to Joe Reeves timing at WOT. Found that the timing as found was firing at about 25deg @ WOT(21 +4). Adjusted spark advance at WOT to 15deg (19-4) using Joes method. This surely had to be the problem right? Wrong. Took it out and still now RPM's under load.

That's pretty much where it sits now. I'm just about out of ideas. By the way, sqeezing the primer while running does nothing. By the way, each time the motor was tested in the water, the plugs were removed afterward and found to be wet and oily in most cases. That is why I thought the motor was running rich.
I'm sure I'll think of a few other things I did after I submit this post, but I'm pretty sure I hit all the major ones.
Once again, thanks for any help or suggestions you can give me.
 

R.Johnson

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Re: Starting All Over

At this point, I would certainly pull the cylinder head, and have a look at those cylinder walls, and piston tops. What have you got to loose?
 

JB

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Re: Starting All Over

I would call that fixing what aint broke, RJ. I think he has already done too much of that.

Let's try to confirm the "running rich" theory. It seems to make sense. The coming and going of the symptoms seem to me to clear mechanical trouble.

Jsalz, See what happens if you disconnect the fuel line while it is acting bad. If the "running rich" theory is correct it should rather quickly jump up on plane, then die.

If that happens I would question the float settings, float needle valves and tank vents (a plugged vent on a tank sitting in the sun can build up undesirable pressure in the tank.) Then I would question whether there is someting periodically impeding the air intake to one or both carbs.

Good luck, and keep us informed.
 

R.Johnson

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Re: Starting All Over

I'm trying to help him find what is broke. When we had a engine that would not respond to normal procedure, the head came off regardless of compression readings. Saved money for the owner, and shop owner. That twin 50 can throw you a curve if you go by compression readings. A leak-down test would be interesting.
 

JB

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Re: Starting All Over

Yes, if the symptoms suggested a mechanical failure I agree that a leakdown test might be interesting.

What sort of mechanical failure would allow symptoms to come and go like that?
 
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