still stumped. 1989 175GT

[twostroke87]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

You said that you tried it at the ramp, I'm assuming that the control box uses that little idle lever which is completely useless when there is a running problem.

Have you tried backing it in at the ramp, starting it and getting it to idle.

Then (you might need one person up front if it is really bad) Put it just into gear, then disconnect the cable at the engine, and take control of the throttle by hand (make sure you grab it so the timing linkage is moving also) And try fast pumping the throttle at much higher and fast rates than that little idle lever does, also possibly try pumping the ball while you do this.

I had a similar problem with a johnson 115, it ended up being a combination of 2 different things, the coils although they had spark it was intermittent, the wires were cracked and breaking, and all the grounds needed to be cleaned.

On top of this, one of the power packs was bad, and was also intermittedly working.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

Hey Td, got what ya need if ya need one. The 1989 35 amp models was known for the center hub problems. If you think its the flywheel ,index it and retest. Are you sure it coming out of Quickstart? Also check the yellow/red wire for stray voltage as if anything over 2 volts it will cause Quickstart to stay engaged,you can have up to 7 volts and not cause soleniod to engage.

 

[JustJason]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

As I said, the center hub magnet being loose will throw off the timing. The outer magnets being loose will not change the timing.

Maybe you misread what I wrote. I completely understand that the outer mag's run the capacitor charge coil and battery charge coil and have nothing to do with the timer base.
But with the center hub off. That magnet will not swipe past the timer base(trigger coils) at the correct time. Either to early or to late depending on which way it spun.

What i'm trying to figure out here is this. TD originally said that he had checked the base and advance timing and said it was spot on. How is that possible with a spun center hub? Unless i'm missing something there is no way you can time that motor if the hub is spun. It would be analogous to setting a distributor on the wrong tooth of a camshaft in an I/O, you may get it close, but there is not way your going to get the motor in time.

 

[bktheking]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

It will be in time according to the physical appearance of correct "timing" but with the magnet physically moved it won't be, it's like trying set timing on a car , it can be set right as far as appearance is concerned but if it's out a tooth it will never run properly, low power, bad idle so on and so forth, the difference being the fact that you can see a rotor being out once everything is lined up, with a magnet you can't unless you have the position in a photo as a reference. You can set the timing all you want, if that magnet has moved timing won't be achieved. I agree with the theory, if off by a tooth or 2 on a distrbiutor you'd see that the rotor is pointing somewhere else. But this isn't a distributor as you know , there are no belts and teeth to deal with. TD only discovered timing was off due to the fact that the magnet moved, symptom=cause I guess in this case.

 

[JustJason]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

Yes but if you put your timing light on #1 and run the motor and shoot the flywheel.... if the center hub is off, #1 is not being fired at the correct time and you would see it by the marks on the flywheel not being where they are supposed to.
Correct?

Its the same as having a sheared key. There's no way the motor will time correctley.

 

[bktheking]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

Yes but if you put your timing light on #1 and run the motor and shoot the flywheel.... if the center hub is off, #1 is not being fired at the correct time and you would see it by the marks on the flywheel not being where they are supposed to.
Correct?

Agreed- read what TD wrote.

i think this is the problem, it throws the timing off, as when i check the timing it was way off, adjusted it, but now it is really rough. there is obvious evidence the timing has been messed with. the distance the timing was off, coincides with the magnets.


Yes in the statement above that you made you are correct. This is assuming you know what the problem is, in this case TD didn't know the magnet had spun. Using a timing light would have lead to the discovery that something was off.

 

[JustJason]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

I hear ya BKtheking, but in post #1 TD wrote...

carbs spot, less, timing right on, link n sinced.

In post #24 I wrote...

TD
food for thought...
1. you said timing was spot on, have you checked if the advance is working and spot on as well?

in post #25 TD replied...

yes, know all about troubleshooting, before, parts.

And it's not until post #31 until TD wrote...

i think this is the problem, it throws the timing off, as when i check the timing it was way off, adjusted it, but now it is really rough.

Unless I am severly missing something here. The timing was either never initially checked and compared to spec, or for whatever reason TD's timing light was mis-reading.
Heck in post #31 TD says that "as I check the timing it is way off, I adjust it and now its really rough" If he has enough adjustment in the timer base linkages to bring the timing to where the light says it's supposed to be, it's obviously way off. That tells me that from the start of this thread that the timing was never initially looked at.
That's all.

 

[bktheking]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

That's quite possible, armchair troubleshooting is suggesting and guesswork and with the help of guys like F_R , Fazt and Ezeke troubleshooting is experience on working on these motors for years over guess work. Half the time I take stabs based on symptoms but I've never touched a 175GT. Timing must have never been "perfect" from the get go. It's good that the issue was found before engine damage was done, that's all I really care about for TD and learning of course.

This is a good thread.

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

Agreed,
A lot of good content here.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

true, originally i did not check the timing, as it still had the original orange factory seal on the adjustment screw. the evidence was the timing marks were marked where it had been checked but not adjusted.

 

[JustJason]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

true, originally i did not check the timing, as it still had the original orange factory seal on the adjustment screw.

Cool, now it completely makes sense. Like I had mentioned before I was working on a J200 a while back that had the same problem, spun center hub. This thread was driving me nuts because I had inferred that you checked the timing and it was correct. I couldn't see how that would be possible. But it all makes sense now.
Glad you found it. If you need a flywheel there's a company called "outboard exchange" that I got 1 from for like 100 bucks plus shipping. If they are still available new I think they are upwards of a grand.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

Just as an FYI - when the center hub ring moves and stays moved it's kinda easy to find, as in this case. The tougher situation is when the magnet moves as the flywheel heats up then moves back close to the correct position when the motor stops. The timing can move far enough that it goes off the grid as you watch it with a light.

Once you see one that has moved it's easy to spot just by looking. You just have to know what to look for.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

thanks, Faztbullet, has a flywheel for me.

 

[James R]

Re: still stumped. 1989 175GT

Hi TD. I am curious to find out if the replacement flywheel fixed the problem.